So my 12 yo is a blackmailer...

[ThisOldSaddo]

We're having difficulties with our 12 year old.

He's insatiable for stuff - sweets, chocolate, pop, tech, gaming...he never listens and will always always always push boundaries. We call him Billy Wantsmore, because of this trait. He always takes it too far, esp when with his brother.

We are having him see an ADHD specialist in November, and that's the nearest private appointment we could get.

We have a friend visiting, he lost his job in lockdown and so we got him down to us as he's fragile, mentally, and was stoney broke!

Last night DH and I went to check out a local car for sale. Friend stayed home and kids were playing on their games upstairs.

Immediately we were out the door,
dS12 came down and said "I'm getting a Boost" from the treat drawer. DF said no, it's too late and it's the last one, your mum might want that. DS then said "if you don't let me have it, I'll tell mum you dented her can with the wheelbarrow" / this I had already figured out and it appears - oddly - DH and I were having a conversation about the new dent whilst this was happening at home - it's no big deal.

DF still said no, but DS took it anyway and went upstairs.

DF told us when we got home.

I am so ashamed of DS.

Nothing we do to discipline him works.

Please help me.

What do I do?

"I don't like him bouncing his elbow off the 8 year old's face, or lying on him so he can't breathe, whilst laughing."

^ This should be top of your list. He's bullying his significantly younger sibling. And that's only what you know about. The other issues are trivial concerns in comparison.

@ThisOldSaddo

thats lovely to hear. And thats what you need to hold on to. I think the most important thing I learnt that my relationship with my son was the most important thing.

I remember one particularly bad phase. He is adopted so had other issues going on and we were waiting for some therapy to start. But his behaviour really was dire, and as a single mum I was nearing my breaking point and our relationship was suffering. After a particularly bad incident I cancelled a weekend away with a youth group he attended because I couldn’t face dealing with him with an audience.

We didnt sit in and have a boring weekend as punishment. The consequence was losing the weekend with friends which he had been warned would happen.
We went to a rugby match, the cinema, out for lunch. We rebuilt our relationship over that weekend. Which was what was needed. He needed time with me, not his friends. It didnt solve our problems but put us in a better place.

Oh and I forgot to agree with other posters get him signed up for as many physical activities as possible ( if he will agree to go) wishy washy unorganised groups run by volunteers are no good. You need structured activities with clearly set expectations and no nonsense leaders so things like martial arts, scouts or cadets are good but also specialist coaching if your DS has a skill? Being recognised as being good at something can be such a positive thing for a child with ADHD as a lot of the feedback they get is negative.

My experience of having a teenager with adhd is similar to many of the experiences mentioned above. Constant firefighting. It is often overwhelming. I’ve now realised that through all the misery it is most important to try to develop the relationship with your child rather than simply focus on the difficult behaviors (shop-lifting, drugs, not going to school alongside his suicidal ideation and anxiety). We have perhaps turned the corner now at almost 17, but the were times I just wanted someone to take him away. I tell him I love him, I try to show him I love him with ‘relational guestures’ and I make time to listen and talk to him. I’ve learnt the hard way that I can’t control him but I can and do let him know what (and why) certain things are unacceptable.

I think you're doing your best OP.

I agree with keeping all sweets out of the house.
Games are created to be addictive. Getting rid of fortnite is probably a good idea too and limiting gaming time too.

Do you have any pets that you can put him in charge of feeding, walking, etc.? I've found it an excellent way to teach empathy.

@WorriedMama101

I've not read all of the messages by everyone so apologies if this has already been said. It sounds like he is 'Craving' sugar. Have you taken him to the Gp to get bloods done etc? I'd also be wondering if he has threadworm. It is very common in young children and makes them crave sugary things!

Not thought of this but will do, prior to Dr Thevan appt. I will also ask him about worms, we've suffered before from this (shudder) so he would tell me.

As for bullying his little sib, this is something we really do take seriously. Again, no punishment seems to matter to him.

@OctaviaTriangle

Christ talk about overkill.

So you suspect additional needs which you're having him assessed for in due course. He asks for a bar of chocolate, is told no, and pulls a fast one and takes it anyway.

That's naughty. That requires a talking to, a punishment that fits the crime and an explanation as to why we don't do this stuff followed up with regular chats around behaviour

I don't think it requires locks on things, removing his tech and then removing a trip out. All you'll do is escalate this situation and back him into a corner

You've made a right old mountain out of a molehill

Exactly this.

Punishments won't make a blind bit of difference. You need to be talking to him, explaining why this kind of behaviour is unacceptable and how others will perceive this kind of behaviour.

He needs guidance and support not ridicule and sanctions.

Try Ross Greene's approach.
The Explosive Child book and his website Lives in the Balance have different parenting techniques which are often recommended in discussions about neurodiverse kids.

I wish I'd had this whole thread to read many years ago. We're well out the other side with a still utterly charming but now responsible DS, but was it hard! And partly because of those who knew exactly what we should be doing and did not hesitate to say so. The image is I keep coming back to is the grit in an oyster shell of otherwise peace-loving people, before it develops into being its own pearl. You sound lovely. Good luck.

Also have a challenging 12 year old who sounds very much like yours though interestingly we haven't considered ADHD though he has been assessed for ASD. He has good focus on school work and loves reading so I suspect that he doesn't fit the usual criteria of inattentiveness and hyperfocuses on the academics. He fits all the rest of it and is so exhausting.

I don't have any words of wisdom at all but wanted to say you weren't alone. I can see the next 8 years are going to be bumpy and just want to fast forward to when he is out of his teens. He can be gorgeously funny and delightful but more often is not. Am going to take a look at the ADHD parenting stuff to find some strategies to help.

If anyone has any links to share - gratefully received.

What he said was horrible, but a stronger adult would’ve said something like- nice try buddy- I’ll be telling her myself and you still aren’t having the boost!

Kids can be vile, but they’re still learning and they need adults to show them the way. I completely understand that your DF isn’t at his strongest right now though, and discussing empathy with your son sounds like a good call.

@ThePlantsitter

How was he supposed to stop the DS getting a chocolate bar?

Without knowing how the house is laid out etc maybe stand in front of the drawer and say 'I said no'? You might as well as how they could make the kid leave in a fire or whatever.

Yes, the two are directly comparable

Make the child leave in a fire? Grab him, carry him, chuck him out of a window if no other option. Child not dead = parents happy.

Stop the child having a chocolate bar? Grab him, carry him, chuck him out of a window. Parents possibly less happy.

I'd echo the pp who asked about rewards. Some kids just don't learn from punishments but do learn from rewards. So clear rules and small rewards (e.g. get points to earn tech-time) can help, especially if you are 100% consistent with it.

@RantyAunty

I think you're doing your best OP.

I agree with keeping all sweets out of the house.
Games are created to be addictive. Getting rid of fortnite is probably a good idea too and limiting gaming time too.

Do you have any pets that you can put him in charge of feeding, walking, etc.? I've found it an excellent way to teach empathy.

Yes, we have a dog and he will feed her when he's up first. However, her small walk (she's elderly) is on his list of 4 things to do a day (one of them being making his bed, the other teeth washing) and the shit he gives us for this. Many tantrums and stomping off. It's gross.

I think you deal with the unreasonable requests on those terms.

Constantly in the snack draw? Ask him if he has a problem with sugar addiction. Give him the info. NHS guidelines, health issues caused from eating too much.

Wanting too much screen time? Ditto. Show the guidelines, the downsides.

Basically encourage him to discipline himself, make the decisions you would make for him.

I don’t recommend the removal of tech as punishment for a child with adhd. The

therapeutic effect of gaming on the adhd brain is real. Gaming hyper focus is calming, a break from an over active mind,
for some kids it’s an opportunity to socialise with likeminded peers,
and of course can help motor skills / co ordination. There is a reason why so many people with neuro diversity love gaming . It’s easy to see gaming hyper focus as an expression of addiction only. Teach your child how to regulate their use of it, don’t include tech in the reward and punishment cycle anymore than food should be included.

The
therapeutic effect of gaming on the adhd brain is real. Gaming hyper focus is calming, a break from an over active mind,

True, but the therapies can be varied. Reading, various sports, running, skateboarding, surfing, biking, spending time caring for animals....it's a long list.

OP the best advice I can give you in one sentence is “ pick your battles” you may have to let somethings go and some of them would give MN the vapours. What kept me sane was that I had a friend I could tell anything and I mean everything! and she didn’t judge me. Other parents and even teachers will say it’s not the child it’s just ineffectual parenting or even that ADHD does not exist it’s just an excuse, I’ve had it all said to me. Also a great help was going to an ADHD parents support group, amongst the parents we had a headteacher, a social worker and a very senior council education person in our group so that’s proof ( if you need proof) that it’s not just bad parenting by useless parents. Other parents mean well but they just don’t get it.
True story - the first ADHD parents group I went to I was so shocked and scared by what the other parents were saying I went home and cried. My DS had not long been diagnosed and I thought he’ll never get that bad but he did and in some ways worse.

“True, but the therapies can be varied. Reading, various sports, running, skateboarding, surfing, biking, spending time caring for animals....it's a long list.”

Yes, absolutely, and and not the point of my post. No one would ever suggest removing books, skateboards etc as a punishment because they are seeing as more virtuous.

Yes, absolutely, and and not the point of my post. No one would ever suggest removing books, skateboards etc as a punishment because they are seeing as more virtuous.

I agree. However, it might be nice to encourage an interest in a variety of pursuits to avoid the stigma of being assumed to be only interested in something that so many view as problematic. (Rather than punish the interest). For example, my teen was pleased to experience lots of validation from there when they discovered they liked running and were pretty good at it. Had never been very 'sporty' before more an intellectual sort. Equally gaming will gain kudos amongst other likeminded individuals.

Only read OPs posts.

My DS1 is nearly 10 and recently diagnosed with ADHD. It's actually helped the entire family (including DS1) to have the diagnosis and therefore to adapt our behaviour around him. It doesn't mean he gets away with "naughty" behaviour, but we are more patient, more understanding and systematically after he's calmed down from an outburst he'll come and cuddle us and apologise and we talk through what happened and how he lost control of his emotions/impulses.

It also helps us pick our battles, depending on what is hardest for him.

Concerning the lying - my DS doesn't lie and doesn't understand lying HOWEVER I have noticed that he hears what he wants to hear/believes what he wants to believe. I have had him swear blind I said yes to screen after dinner whereas I said no. It took 2 witnesses before he believed me that he'd misheard.

He is also very routine based and he often decides in his head what he wants to do that day and gets incredibly upset when we say we're doing something else - he hasn't discussed with us what he wants. So we're slowly getting through to him that just because he has planned to meet a friend online that evening doesn't mean he will, especially as we have a no computer games during the week rule. Yet he will get upset and angry when we say no. Before diagnosis I'd get angry too. Post diagnosis allows me to keep my calm (better but Im not perfect!)

thank you all, I am continuing to read. X

@grasstreeleaf

do you seriously expect a 12 year old who probably has additional needs to understand addiction and to addree it themselves.

If it was that simple there would be no adult addicts

the whole point is that he cannot discipline himself.

@ThisOldSaddo

I’m not at all suggesting that he has this, but take a look at Pathological Demand Avoidance
I know a number of people who use the strategies, even though the child does not have PDA.

Maybe 4 things to do a day is too much. Does it really matter if he doesn’t makes his bed every day, is it really worth fighting over. Pick your battles

Definitely coming around to picking battles! And even though the making bed thing is on the list, he rarely does it. He doesn't do anything on the list off his own back, and will argue about the rest.