So my 12 yo is a blackmailer...

[ThisOldSaddo]

We're having difficulties with our 12 year old.

He's insatiable for stuff - sweets, chocolate, pop, tech, gaming...he never listens and will always always always push boundaries. We call him Billy Wantsmore, because of this trait. He always takes it too far, esp when with his brother.

We are having him see an ADHD specialist in November, and that's the nearest private appointment we could get.

We have a friend visiting, he lost his job in lockdown and so we got him down to us as he's fragile, mentally, and was stoney broke!

Last night DH and I went to check out a local car for sale. Friend stayed home and kids were playing on their games upstairs.

Immediately we were out the door,
dS12 came down and said "I'm getting a Boost" from the treat drawer. DF said no, it's too late and it's the last one, your mum might want that. DS then said "if you don't let me have it, I'll tell mum you dented her can with the wheelbarrow" / this I had already figured out and it appears - oddly - DH and I were having a conversation about the new dent whilst this was happening at home - it's no big deal.

DF still said no, but DS took it anyway and went upstairs.

DF told us when we got home.

I am so ashamed of DS.

Nothing we do to discipline him works.

Please help me.

What do I do?

@sashh

OK an idea here from FE teaching.

Because FE is mainly 16+ and can involve adults you write a 'class contract' with the class, so phone use, well phones should be off in college but as many students are also single parents we discuss what is appropriate and what is not.

EG if you think you might get a call sit near the door and leavet eh room before answering.

Could you do something similar as a family?

Ask all the children about rules and discuss them, don't automatically say 'no' ask for reasons.

Also discuss punishments. Taking something 'for ever' or 'grounding for life' are meaning less.

Chores should have a time and a definitive end point eg washing up, you need to include whether this also involves drying and putting away, or collecting from other rooms.

If necessary make a poster of what should happen and when and what punishments are suitable for certain acts.

Clear guidelines on who he has to take directions from.

Thank you, truly. Oddly enough, DH needs instructions like this...maybe the apple didn't fall too far from the tree.

Yes, the appt is Nov and we're paying for it! I'd hate to think how long it would be if we couldn't.

It was 5 years for us on the NHS.

He is addicted to sugar - so no Boosts or anything like it in the house.

If you all did a week of drinking water just snacking on fruit/cheese he would be soon over the addiction.

A month ago I couldn't walk past a dairy milk in the supermarket - I stopped it all for two weeks and now I couldn't care less about chocolate.

Another good approach I have is "if you want snacks you have to bake them". My 12 year old now In charge of baking flapjacks or whatever at the weekend. It slows down the whole desire/consumption process.

I realised I was wolfing down a dairy milk totally mindlessly just while reversing out of the supermarket car park - barely noticed it tbh.

Bring more mindful about what you eat is good.

@Tal45

My concern would be that you've locked all the tasty stuff away under lock and key so he can't get any of it, you're concerned he's addicted so what then? He gets even more sneaky and finds out somehow where the key is or what the combination is? It turns into a battle where he starts blackmailing you for sweet stuff as a reward for doing anything? He starts nicking stuff from the local shop??

It sounds like he has a brain wired for addiction, these things often run in families. I think it would be better to try to moderate his behaviour in agreement with him - what is a reasonable amount of junk food for a week - get him to do some research and convince you of how much a 12 year should be able to eat in a week, how much sugar is recommended daily and how much is in a bar of chocolate - you might all get a bit of a shock! That amount can then be in treat drawer and when it's gone, it's gone. Make sure there are always healthy snacks available as an alternative, nuts/carrot/cucumber/apple.

Also get some real control on how much time he spends gaming, agree with him set times when he is allowed to play and what happens if he goes over this. Don't make threats you're not going to follow through with, it'll never lead to better behaviour just the feeling that they can get away with stuff.

Up the activities outside the house, at least one long walk everyday, try geocaching or pokemon go, go swimming a couple of times a week, sign him up to any sports clubs he is interested in. I'd also pick up on the animal thing - what about volunteering to walk dogs at a dogs home (obviously he'd have to have an adult with him).

I don't think what he did was that bad personally, children can be selfish and manipulative little sods!! I doubt it was malicious, just ignoring an adult when he knew he could get away with it to get a chocolate bar he wanted. But it's a good opportunity to look at the bigger picture and work out how to move forward and help him.

Certainly a worry of mine, that addictive traits run in the DNA.

I've actually got the stuff with my, in my car, because we don't have a door to lock (yet).

Great ideas - getting him to look this up himself, googling gaming limits and why (young brains) etc is such a good idea. And something I do want to nip now, rather than let him grow into it and struggle later as my sis did. Thank yoU!

Also, just as an aside to be aware of really, I wanted to mention rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is common in people with ADHD. The number of negative interactions your son is having seem to be quite high, and even without RSD will be impactful, but my concern would be his self esteem and him 'switching off' to you and other authority figures as a self protective defense against the negative feelings he must be experiencing.

Random Google link which has a description, though I'm not sure it's something I'd medicate for (this is American) www.webmd.com/add-adhd/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria

(My oldest is strongly suspected to have ADHD, but no diagnosis yet).

@Bumpsadaisie

He is addicted to sugar - so no Boosts or anything like it in the house.

If you all did a week of drinking water just snacking on fruit/cheese he would be soon over the addiction.

A month ago I couldn't walk past a dairy milk in the supermarket - I stopped it all for two weeks and now I couldn't care less about chocolate.

Another good approach I have is "if you want snacks you have to bake them". My 12 year old now In charge of baking flapjacks or whatever at the weekend. It slows down the whole desire/consumption process.

I realised I was wolfing down a dairy milk totally mindlessly just while reversing out of the supermarket car park - barely noticed it tbh.

Bring more mindful about what you eat is good.

So true. So so true.

I don't have "treats" in the house. No biscuits, crisps, ice creams.

I buy them occasionally to be eaten straight away. The only time we'd have bars of chocolate laying around would be at Christmas.

I know that sounds peak mumsnet but actually it's amazing how easy it is.

@MuggleStudiesResearchProject

Also, just as an aside to be aware of really, I wanted to mention rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is common in people with ADHD. The number of negative interactions your son is having seem to be quite high, and even without RSD will be impactful, but my concern would be his self esteem and him 'switching off' to you and other authority figures as a self protective defense against the negative feelings he must be experiencing.

Random Google link which has a description, though I'm not sure it's something I'd medicate for (this is American) www.webmd.com/add-adhd/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria

(My oldest is strongly suspected to have ADHD, but no diagnosis yet).

Thank you Muggle, am saving this link.

Thanks so much.

@Bryonyshcmyony

I don't have "treats" in the house. No biscuits, crisps, ice creams.

I buy them occasionally to be eaten straight away. The only time we'd have bars of chocolate laying around would be at Christmas.

I know that sounds peak mumsnet but actually it's amazing how easy it is.

It was like this growing up!

When we've had au pairs from Poland/Spain they've all expressed surprise at the amount we have in (not wild, but we don't have any other vices, so it's nice to have a proper bar of chocolate available exactly when you want it). But it's less of a luxury now, so I think we're done.

@MrsRobbieHart

Yes, the appt is Nov and we're paying for it! I'd hate to think how long it would be if we couldn't.

It was 5 years for us on the NHS.

That is outrageous, and I am sorry.

I think you’ve done all the right things so far, but you need to sort the internet out. Limit the amount of time he has on it. There are apps for Xbox (Xbox family) and Nintendo (switch parental) where you can control how long he gets and which days he can play. Even better if your with Sky (not sure about other providers) you can isolate each piece of technology so you can block/pause only his internet on his phone, tablet or any consoles he has at anytime and set up a cut off point. Of course he may still have data on his phone he could use but you could ask him to hand his phone in at a certain time? But if not then you can also block the websites you know he uses such as YouTube, Roblox or whatever. You both need to sit him down and come up with an agreed plan on how much time he gets on the internet (don’t be unrealistic but don’t be a pushover either) and stick to the time when it goes. Also maybe get him into a hobby at the weekends so it’s not all about gaming and snacks. Good luck Op I know it’s not easy.

I have a DD who is similar. From an early age I had the rule that she wasn't allowed sweet things between meals. (I was trying to get good dental health). But after lunch / tea she can have it. She gets pocket money, which she spends on sweets. This gives her some control of it rather than it always being about me controlling what she is and is not allowed to have.
She finds it difficult to deal with arbitory rules. Eg can I have this? 'No', 'Why?' 'Because.... no good reason'. She could easily pull a stunt like you describe, but I would probably downplay the blackmail element of it and focus on creating boudaries that are easy to understand and apply but also give your DS some element of choice and control.

@Cas112

Half of these responses explain ALOT why children are the way they are nowadays OP. To much pandering, not enough teaching consequences to your actions, half of these responses are ridiculous. You can tell OP is not 'bullying' her own child, she's trying to find a means to an end. If she was bullying why come on here for advice, why not carry on being a 'bully' mum seems as she enjoys it so much. Everyone needs to stop trying to make OP feel like poo, understand kids are kids and will misbehave and are more likely to learn via consequences of their actions.

I hope no one actually thinks that, and I did know that there would be some digs clearly (it is Chat, after all!). But I had hoped rather that the very fact I'm here, worrying about all of this, looking for strategies/tools to deal with him, would show me for who I am. A frazzled working mother, trying to figure out what happened to her gorgeous little boy - to the point where I'm making notes of my conversations with him, because he's so good at gas-lighting me (actually fucking gas lighting me).

I don't want to damage him. I also want my home to be somewhere my other children and my husband like to be - not full of anger and spite because of one human. But again, he's our first, so I didn't know if it was always like this. Hence me being here, asking for advice, aware that amongst the advice there would be others dying to give me a kicking - but it's worth it. Always is on here.

Thanks for that update about the dynamics with the other adults in the house, OP.

I’m not surprised your DH can’t manage his son’s behaviour. He sounds rigid in his thinking - “abhors lying”, yet is not, apparently, trying to get to the bottom of why his child might feel the need to lie. And not calling out your friend for lying by omission about the damage to your car.

I think your friend needs to find somewhere else to live when he’s going through a bad time with his mental health. Does he not feel bad about imposing on a family who are clearly going though a difficult time without him there in the mix?

You need to work together as a family. Your DH needs to step up and be an adult here. A diagnosis will not make the behaviour go away - you will still need to manage the behaviour, you’ll just have more information and perhaps more appropriate strategies to help you. And remember he may not be diagnosed with anything so please don’t hang all your hopes on it.

OP don't listen to the haters.

The first thing that you need to do is start viewing your child's actions through the lens of his neurological condition (assuming that he's diagnosed with ADHD and / or any other potential spectrum disorders when you have your appointment) The ADHD brain is very different to a NT brain - there's no point in having the same expectations as you would an NT child and likewise the punishments that you give him will not have the same effect. Of course there is no excuse for bad behavior, and he will need to have boundaries and consequences, but you have to remember that he's not necessarily in control and will need you to help him make the right choices. It's a bit like telling a kid off for not being able to read something when they are actually short-sighted - you need to look at the underlying problem and work out some strategies to help him succeed. Parenting any child with additional needs is tough but remember that being a child with additional needs is tough too.

Hence me being here, asking for advice, aware that amongst the advice there would be others dying to give me a kicking - but it's worth it. Always is on here.

There's never a shortage of pious scolds on MN. Must be wonderful to be so perfect and have such angelic children.

We have a boundary pushing 7yo - has asd but awaiting assessment for adhd and has a number of things going on like your son, poor impulse control being one of them. Working in the garden is one thing that really helps, so if there’s anything he can do out there (even if it’s digging a hole) then I’d get him doing it.

DS is the same with snacks too, so the good stuff gets well hidden, but we keep a box in a cupboard he can access with just his few bits in for the day. He can help himself, it’s all his so he’s not obsessing about someone else eating it before he can, and it’s stuff we plan for him to eat that day anyway. Once it’s gone, it’s gone and when we first started using it he’d really try it on to get more once he’d eaten it all, but he has now learned that it gets new stuff in the morning so he’s calmed down with the constant nagging/manipulation.

Thinking ahead is a problem for him, he’s very much living in the here and now so struggles with the concept of what’ll he do later when he wants snacks and there’s none left, but it’s routine now to get a new stash in the morning and that’s helped. He also struggles with the concept of leaving the last one on the packet for someone else - not that he’s selfish, he’ll actually share his sweets with you without being asked!

Your ds is lying because he wants a chocolate bar! Sugar addiction is a thing. He's not a terrible person but you can help him by removing as much sugar as possible
I know I'd try yheis before persuing an adhd diagnosis

How about a short dopamine fast every time his wants are out of control (google dopamine fast for more info), but with the awareness and conversation that, although it seems like a punishment, it's actually a reset for his brain to make him happier? He's old enough to understand that. Sure, in the short term on a fast he'll feel desperate for chocolate /fortnite/ phone etc, but it will make him so much better. And then restrict access to anything dopamine-producing. Find the balance with trial and error. It affects everyone, but with the ADHD he is probably more susceptible. When it gets out of control again... another dopamine fast. Try really getting rid of sugar as much as poss though, eg you can buy/bake treats that don't have refined sugar and use alternate sources of sweetness. Worth doing when behaviour is so strongly affected... and then maybe only have the odd ice-cream etc outside the house?

My friend says her kids have got really badly behaved because of TikTok (probably Fortnite too), even the 8 year old is getting really cheeky and they are all into "trash talk". She wishes she'd been more strict re screens.

Your son is smart, you could encourage/praise that side of him somehow, while not rewarding the bad behaviour of course. Good luck!

Do most 7 year olds have a box of snacks?! What are the snacks?

In light of the possible diagnosis, it might be worth rethinking the response if you feel like the outcome of this ends up being a punishment rather than a way of helping him to modify his behaviour in the long term. Young people with ADHD are often in a semi-permanent condition of reward craving- which may be what is driving the constant treat demands and many other aspects of impulsive behaviour. They also don’t always respond well to the concept of consequences- these can be viewed as fairly abstract and unrelated events which aren’t worth sacrificing the immediate need for.
At the moment, you don’t have the diagnosis- but if you are leaning towards it as a strong possibility, then you probably are also open to accepting that your son is also pretty miserable about this behaviour, and feels overwhelmed and out of control. It might be helpful to work with him to find a substitute for sweets that he finds can give him a similar reward ‘hit’. And get him lots of exercise! If he has ADHD, then your support, love and willingness to do things differently will be the most valuable gift you can give him.

Taking a chocolate bar isn't that bad... don't kids do that kind of thing all the time?!! I know I used to!
Really don't understand why this is a big deal. He's hardly "a blackmailer"! From the heading, I thought he'd been sending threatening letters to other kids or some such, something actually very dark.

@Bryonyshcmyony

OP don't listen to the haters.

I’m sure the OP will be indebted to you for the depth and insight of this post.

Sending you some virtual support op.
At 12 my(undiagnosed at that time) dd ran rings around me. Super smart, convincing, one step ahead and completely unfazed by consequences.

If I might offer one piece of advice,when he has earned back games, only give back the games for his age group, and only one or two a week. Put the rest in the attic/car boot etc