So my 12 yo is a blackmailer...

[ThisOldSaddo]

We're having difficulties with our 12 year old.

He's insatiable for stuff - sweets, chocolate, pop, tech, gaming...he never listens and will always always always push boundaries. We call him Billy Wantsmore, because of this trait. He always takes it too far, esp when with his brother.

We are having him see an ADHD specialist in November, and that's the nearest private appointment we could get.

We have a friend visiting, he lost his job in lockdown and so we got him down to us as he's fragile, mentally, and was stoney broke!

Last night DH and I went to check out a local car for sale. Friend stayed home and kids were playing on their games upstairs.

Immediately we were out the door,
dS12 came down and said "I'm getting a Boost" from the treat drawer. DF said no, it's too late and it's the last one, your mum might want that. DS then said "if you don't let me have it, I'll tell mum you dented her can with the wheelbarrow" / this I had already figured out and it appears - oddly - DH and I were having a conversation about the new dent whilst this was happening at home - it's no big deal.

DF still said no, but DS took it anyway and went upstairs.

DF told us when we got home.

I am so ashamed of DS.

Nothing we do to discipline him works.

Please help me.

What do I do?

I have an adhd teen but he has been diagnosed and treated since he was 6, so different there.

How does he react when you explain how you feel after an event? Is he sorry/upset or just shrugs it off?

It sounds like you have a high octane life, from your posts I’m inferring that both parents work busy jobs and you have a nanny? How much time do you get with your children?

Is the behaviour better or worse during school time? Routines are very important for all children but I found especially so with my son. I was envious of others that would be all relaxed around bedtimes and holidays as we just couldn’t. It wasn’t a strict rigid routine but we had to stick with it all year.

Finally, yes there are some games/tv shows that made behaviour worse and they were banned. Fortnight was one of them. Then he was allowed 1 or 2 games a week weekend morning, but it still had to be controlled.

Warm strict parenting seems to have worked for us (touch wood) he knows he is loved but also knows there are rules.

Our friend is a very familiar fixture in our house.

Have you asked him how he feels about that?

If your child does have ADHD then you are approaching this in the completely wrong way, even if he doesn't then you dealt him a heap of punishments for a crime that I don't think justifies such big punishments.

You need to work on building a strong relationship with him, doing positive things with him, praising him for every little positive thing you see him doing. The more you do this the more he will hopefully seek out the positive side of your relationship.

To be fair, your friend is also a liar as he damaged something of yours and said nothing from the sound of it. If he had been honest your son would have had nothing to use against him.

With an ADHD child punishments actually work in the opposite way, they build resentment and people with ADHD tend to 'feel' emotions much more deeply than NT people so it builds in to him not wanting to please you.

Consequences should be immediate and proportionate, in this case I think taking away the treat drawer and his access to it was the consequence to the taken lolly. Children and Adults with ADHD often seek out sugary foods as they give the brain a boost of dopamine which an ADHD brain is lacking in, it quickly becomes addictive to many so that may be why you are finding he can't keep out of the treat drawer despite the other kids in the house being able to.

You're still wondering how to punish him, then have a list of six ways in which you've already punished him!! Is that not enough?! Stop thinking in terms of punitive tit for tat and start considering the emotional support and strategies you can apply to work towards a more harmonious future. When you say you've talked to him it sounds like you just sat him down and ranted at him. Think about all of this from his perspective. Let him speak and listen to him.

You are also consistently dehumanising him, likening him to a dog, calling him names etc. I'm also concerned with how you're constantly comparing him and his siblings. You say you don't do that in front of them, but I'd bet they've all picked up on your feelings. I think you've started scapegoating him in your mind, so that it vilifies you for your role in these situations, and the difficult feelings that having a 'different' child can bring. Work towards accepting him as he is and reducing blame (to yourself and him). Obviously you need boundaries for behaviour and consequences for breaking them, but you've already had half a dozen consequences and you're still thinking of ways for more!

@Warmduscher

Do you ever reward him when he's been good?

This is a good point.

You mention your friend who you seem to have pulled put all the stops for, and your sister, who has been sober for nine years. You’re clearly able to see the positives in other people and respond to them.

You have only a small window now to build your relationship back up with him. In a few short years his friends will be the most important influence on his life and opinions (they may even be already). Regardless of a diagnosis, you need to work on the relationship you have now.

You need to stop called him names, stop referring to him as “the child” or his behaviour as that of “Kevin the Teenager”.

Look out for a Talking Teens parenting course or something similar - or find a book with some strategies - I would highly recommend “How to Talk so Teens will Listen and Listen so Teens Will Talk”.

I am all over books, big into audible, so will defo check them out.

Are you saying that in a conversation with other mothers, we aren't allowed to refer to our children who never read this anon internet forum, as "Kevin the teenager" or a blackmailer (which is the exact word for what he did)?

Machiavellian? Ffs.

Your own child! If you dont have his back who will. You need to build bridges and fast.

@MuggleStudiesResearchProject

You're still wondering how to punish him, then have a list of six ways in which you've already punished him!! Is that not enough?! Stop thinking in terms of punitive tit for tat and start considering the emotional support and strategies you can apply to work towards a more harmonious future. When you say you've talked to him it sounds like you just sat him down and ranted at him. Think about all of this from his perspective. Let him speak and listen to him.

You are also consistently dehumanising him, likening him to a dog, calling him names etc. I'm also concerned with how you're constantly comparing him and his siblings. You say you don't do that in front of them, but I'd bet they've all picked up on your feelings. I think you've started scapegoating him in your mind, so that it vilifies you for your role in these situations, and the difficult feelings that having a 'different' child can bring. Work towards accepting him as he is and reducing blame (to yourself and him). Obviously you need boundaries for behaviour and consequences for breaking them, but you've already had half a dozen consequences and you're still thinking of ways for more!

Thanks for this. I'm not thinking of more ways - I don't think there are any more ways! I'm thinking more like "does he get it back? If so, when? And only after he proves X Y Z". There's nothing else to do really, as I said, it doesn't work with him.

I also nearly put in a disclaimer for the exercise quip about spaniels and tween boys being one in the same (not really) but again didn't think I had to.

Perhaps MN is actually too literal these days?

This is fairly classic ADHD - they want what they want but they want ALL of it and part of it will not do.
E.g. my DS will want to watch a film, all of it, and the fact that there isn't time before school/bed is irrelevant, and if he can't watch all of it he will either watch none or get very very angry.
I would lay off the Fortnite though. My DS is only 9 and he hasn't had YouTube gaming for about 6 months due to the difficulty in stopping watching it.

Are you saying that in a conversation with other mothers, we aren't allowed to refer to our children who never read this anon internet forum, as "Kevin the teenager" or a blackmailer (which is the exact word for what he did)?

I think the way forward for your relationship is to avoid name-calling altogether. Adults should be able to talk about their child and their behaviour separately and without insulting them.

Parents who have never parented a child with ADHD have no idea!!

Nothing works, the beating drum is a perfect analogy for when food is in the house.

I would remove all items from my son and he would say "well what you gonna do now, there's nothing left to take"

He would stand and laugh in my face, he was also very strong from about 8yrs.

He said it was like his brain was ticking over too fast and he had a million thoughts a second.
He started medication and was a different child, went from nearly being excluded form school to practically straight As across the board.

He is 23 now, still obsessed sometimes, but better

Hi OP,
I think you should take the tech out of your son’s bedroom - and all the children’s bedrooms. Permanently rather than as a punishment. The internet is a dangerous place and your clever and curious son is on the cusp of becoming a teenager. The internet should be used downstairs where other people are around. Even playing games there is the potential for playing with strangers/grooming.

Put the console on the main tele or if you have a playroom so that people have to take turns with gaming/tv, consider others etc… and yes it’s annoying to have them shrieking along talking to their mates whike gaming. If you leave the internet in your son’s room when he is a teenager (whether console/phone/ipad) you won’t see much of him and god knows what he will be looking at and getting involved in. Tech downstairs.

Sorry, in regards to Fortnite. Yes, I would severely limit it or remove it, screen time can definitely be a trigger for shitty behavior, particularly games like that. They too can be very addictive to an ADHD brain so it may be very difficult but technology is very limited in our house generally and I can definitely tell the difference in my two (one diagnosed, one suspected but too young to diagnose ADHD) kids when they have been watching too much TV.

@StoppinBy

If your child does have ADHD then you are approaching this in the completely wrong way, even if he doesn't then you dealt him a heap of punishments for a crime that I don't think justifies such big punishments.

You need to work on building a strong relationship with him, doing positive things with him, praising him for every little positive thing you see him doing. The more you do this the more he will hopefully seek out the positive side of your relationship.

To be fair, your friend is also a liar as he damaged something of yours and said nothing from the sound of it. If he had been honest your son would have had nothing to use against him.

With an ADHD child punishments actually work in the opposite way, they build resentment and people with ADHD tend to 'feel' emotions much more deeply than NT people so it builds in to him not wanting to please you.

Consequences should be immediate and proportionate, in this case I think taking away the treat drawer and his access to it was the consequence to the taken lolly. Children and Adults with ADHD often seek out sugary foods as they give the brain a boost of dopamine which an ADHD brain is lacking in, it quickly becomes addictive to many so that may be why you are finding he can't keep out of the treat drawer despite the other kids in the house being able to.

The thing is we won't know for a while, so...

Also re: DF, I know. He is aware he should have 'fessed up. Nothing I can do about that now.

The sugar/ADHD thing is so interesting. We first went down the ADHD path because he didn't seem to be learning.

He'd do something that he'd know would get him in trouble. He'd lose his tech for a week, or could earn it back but didn't want to bother...he seemed kind of "not arsed" until he was and then wanted everything immediately. He wasn't getting the picture that what he did causes him losing tech, being bored, not being allowed at his friend's house etc.

The 8 yo learned that quickly, so we thought perhaps it's not just a "kid thing" perhaps it's a "him thing" and then we decided to look into it further.

He was meant to be checked last year of school, his appointment was on 23/3/20 so nothing...then all of a sudden big school and now we're at the bottom of the pile again. So we've tried hard to get some outside help, but speed isn't at the top of their list!

I am so interested in the sugary food/ADHD brain link. Thank you, will read more.

@Winter2020

Hi OP, I think you should take the tech out of your son’s bedroom - and all the children’s bedrooms. Permanently rather than as a punishment. The internet is a dangerous place and your clever and curious son is on the cusp of becoming a teenager. The internet should be used downstairs where other people are around. Even playing games there is the potential for playing with strangers/grooming.

Put the console on the main tele or if you have a playroom so that people have to take turns with gaming/tv, consider others etc… and yes it’s annoying to have them shrieking along talking to their mates whike gaming. If you leave the internet in your son’s room when he is a teenager (whether console/phone/ipad) you won’t see much of him and god knows what he will be looking at and getting involved in. Tech downstairs.

Yes, have been teetering on this for a while now. When I heard China had put a stop on children playing more than 3h a week, I secretly hoped they'd think about it here!!

Thank you. You're so right.

When it comes to how to sanction unwanted behaviour, you need to have clear, understood (by your child) consequences, agreed in advance, proportionate to the behaviour and a logical consequence of that behaviour.

You need to explain to him what the sanction is and why, not just pile on punishment after punishment - it gives you nothing in reserve and you come across as desperate.

How much support does your DH give you? What is his relationship like with your child? How is your child’s relationship with the nanny? There seem to be a lot of adults in your child’s home and I wonder if there is any consistency to the way you all interact with him.

@Warmduscher

Are you saying that in a conversation with other mothers, we aren't allowed to refer to our children who never read this anon internet forum, as "Kevin the teenager" or a blackmailer (which is the exact word for what he did)?

I think the way forward for your relationship is to avoid name-calling altogether. Adults should be able to talk about their child and their behaviour separately and without insulting them.

God, I think being with other parents in a safe space, without the child, we shouldn't be policed when there's no harm done. But I appreciate you have a different stance, and that's ok.

@Outbutnotoutout

Parents who have never parented a child with ADHD have no idea!!

Nothing works, the beating drum is a perfect analogy for when food is in the house.

I would remove all items from my son and he would say "well what you gonna do now, there's nothing left to take"

He would stand and laugh in my face, he was also very strong from about 8yrs.

He said it was like his brain was ticking over too fast and he had a million thoughts a second.
He started medication and was a different child, went from nearly being excluded form school to practically straight As across the board.

He is 23 now, still obsessed sometimes, but better

I have an adult child with ADHD. Went 26 years before they were diagnosed.

God, I think being with other parents in a safe space, without the child, we shouldn't be policed when there's no harm done. But I appreciate you have a different stance, and that's ok.

But you said upthread you’ve called him “Billy Wantsmore” to his face in the past. There will have been harm done then, even if you have now stopped and only call him names behind his back.

Half of these responses explain ALOT why children are the way they are nowadays OP. To much pandering, not enough teaching consequences to your actions, half of these responses are ridiculous. You can tell OP is not 'bullying' her own child, she's trying to find a means to an end. If she was bullying why come on here for advice, why not carry on being a 'bully' mum seems as she enjoys it so much. Everyone needs to stop trying to make OP feel like poo, understand kids are kids and will misbehave and are more likely to learn via consequences of their actions.

My concern would be that you've locked all the tasty stuff away under lock and key so he can't get any of it, you're concerned he's addicted so what then? He gets even more sneaky and finds out somehow where the key is or what the combination is? It turns into a battle where he starts blackmailing you for sweet stuff as a reward for doing anything? He starts nicking stuff from the local shop??

It sounds like he has a brain wired for addiction, these things often run in families. I think it would be better to try to moderate his behaviour in agreement with him - what is a reasonable amount of junk food for a week - get him to do some research and convince you of how much a 12 year should be able to eat in a week, how much sugar is recommended daily and how much is in a bar of chocolate - you might all get a bit of a shock! That amount can then be in treat drawer and when it's gone, it's gone. Make sure there are always healthy snacks available as an alternative, nuts/carrot/cucumber/apple.

Also get some real control on how much time he spends gaming, agree with him set times when he is allowed to play and what happens if he goes over this. Don't make threats you're not going to follow through with, it'll never lead to better behaviour just the feeling that they can get away with stuff.

Up the activities outside the house, at least one long walk everyday, try geocaching or pokemon go, go swimming a couple of times a week, sign him up to any sports clubs he is interested in. I'd also pick up on the animal thing - what about volunteering to walk dogs at a dogs home (obviously he'd have to have an adult with him).

I don't think what he did was that bad personally, children can be selfish and manipulative little sods!! I doubt it was malicious, just ignoring an adult when he knew he could get away with it to get a chocolate bar he wanted. But it's a good opportunity to look at the bigger picture and work out how to move forward and help him.

OK an idea here from FE teaching.

Because FE is mainly 16+ and can involve adults you write a 'class contract' with the class, so phone use, well phones should be off in college but as many students are also single parents we discuss what is appropriate and what is not.

EG if you think you might get a call sit near the door and leavet eh room before answering.

Could you do something similar as a family?

Ask all the children about rules and discuss them, don't automatically say 'no' ask for reasons.

Also discuss punishments. Taking something 'for ever' or 'grounding for life' are meaning less.

Chores should have a time and a definitive end point eg washing up, you need to include whether this also involves drying and putting away, or collecting from other rooms.

If necessary make a poster of what should happen and when and what punishments are suitable for certain acts.

Clear guidelines on who he has to take directions from.

In reply to your comment about your son 'not being arsed' and then just going all out to get it back, this sounds very typical, have a look in to hyperfocus.

There is a misconception that people with ADHD can't focus on things but they can, they can focus and hyperfocus on things they are interested in but struggle to focus on things that don't hold their interest. The brain just struggles despite any punishments or rewards in place.

It's so hard to get an appointment isn't it. If the school have flagged it there's likely something to it.

@Warmduscher

When it comes to how to sanction unwanted behaviour, you need to have clear, understood (by your child) consequences, agreed in advance, proportionate to the behaviour and a logical consequence of that behaviour.

You need to explain to him what the sanction is and why, not just pile on punishment after punishment - it gives you nothing in reserve and you come across as desperate.

How much support does your DH give you? What is his relationship like with your child? How is your child’s relationship with the nanny? There seem to be a lot of adults in your child’s home and I wonder if there is any consistency to the way you all interact with him.

So nanny is fab, but was just a summer nanny (we used to have au pairs, but that's not happening now, so nanny it is). She is young and has lots of energy - she also has a backbone of steel! So doesn't take any crap from them, but is defo good-time nanny. Lots of energy and choices of where to go - cooking with them, just great. She does only 1.5 days a week in the summer.

I do one day, husband does another, and they went to their friends' for the other day (and I had her two on my day - they are best of friends, worked so well).

DF has been back for a week, but has visited regularly and for long stints since he lost his job. He's kind of like the nanny in that he too is up for a good time, but isn't afraid to tell them "no" or try to! But there's a line and he doesn't cross it (he won't parent them, as it were).

DH and DS are not sympatico at the moment. DH abhors lying, and as DS does so much of it, he struggles with him - he also can't understand why the child can't learn to behave better, that bad things happen when he steals, lies, bullies his bro etc. But he is also the one who pushed for a poss ADHD dx, so wants to understand how to parent this particular child.

He's our first, so you just think "they're all like this maybe?" and then the other two aren't, so you're then on an about turn thinking "ah, perhaps there's something else at play here".

The adults in the house have no affect on him. It's just a summer thing - and has flown to be honest. He's always like this, even in "normal" times, whatever they are.

Without knowing how the house is laid out etc maybe stand in front of the drawer and say 'I said no'? You might as well as how they could make the kid leave in a fire or whatever.
No sensible MAN is going to manhandle a child unless its an emergency. He likely already knows he's manipulative, and denting the car is a fairly mild allegation compared to DF laying a hand on him or physically trying to block him off. If he grabs the kid and carries him out the house because the house is on fire its a totally different thing

@StoppinBy

In reply to your comment about your son 'not being arsed' and then just going all out to get it back, this sounds very typical, have a look in to hyperfocus.

There is a misconception that people with ADHD can't focus on things but they can, they can focus and hyperfocus on things they are interested in but struggle to focus on things that don't hold their interest. The brain just struggles despite any punishments or rewards in place.

It's so hard to get an appointment isn't it. If the school have flagged it there's likely something to it.

Yes, the appt is Nov and we're paying for it! I'd hate to think how long it would be if we couldn't.

Will certainly look into that - he can focus, but only when HE wants to, and on things HE enjoys...(but isn't that all kids?).