Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

My son attended a private school in Y4 to Y5. The parents were mostly hairdressers and gangsters and he put on weight as the school had such a small playing area

Sorry 😂😂😂😂

Andante57 - my mum (not a teacher) tutored me for 11+. What’s the difference between helping with homework/learning at home and tutoring? Banning all parental help would be counter productive for education in general. It is an inequality - some people have parents who are teachers/lecturers, others have parents who are non academic or unfamiliar with school system or have difficulty with English.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@travellinglighter,

A surplus is not a profit. It just goes into school funds where it can be used for long term investment (buildings etc) or into things like bursaries.

You cannot be a charity and make a profit.[/quote]
Your right because if you make a profit you can be taxed on it. Eton maintains its charitable status so that it does not pay corporation tax, it pays one fifth of the business rated it would normally pay. It is VAT exempt and all this amounts to a taxpayer subsidy of about £6500 per pupil. Bear in mind each secondary school pupil is subsidised. by the state to the tune of £5600. Also Bear in mind that this “Charity” has land worth in excess of £62 million and an investment fund in excess of £213 million pounds.

Of course it’s a charity, it runs a few summer schools and some of the pupils don’t pay the full fees. It’s also an exempt Charity so does not/cannot register with the Charity commission, is not directly regulated by the Charity commission but by a self appointed principal regulator and can only be investigated at the request of the principal regulator.

It’s charitable status is an anomaly that should have been revoked long ago but for some reason never has been.

Here’s the thing, I don’t want private schools closed, I just want the privilege they entrench revoked so that the kid from a bog standard comprehensive with 3 A*’s has as much chance of getting into oxbridge or Durham or Bristol or any other Russell group university as the wealthy kids who went to Eton, Harrow, stow or even the small private school down the road.

Do you want the private sector to dominate?

Just want to say. Always been against private education. Had a kid. Diagnosed at 10 with ASD. People said to me “why d’you want to label him?”. My reply. “Because he’s already labelled, Slow, stupid, weird, lazy - by state schools. Appalling, truly APPALLING approach by state primary, then, after some improvement, by another state primary.
Moved to private school. Total change in approach - 8 GCSEs excellent grades. If he’d gone to state school, most likely he would have failed.

It’s charitable status is an anomaly that should have been revoked long ago but for some reason never has been

Travellinglighter This is not easy to do - it has been explained why upthread and on many other private v state education threads. I expect there’s stuff about it on google if you look.
There have been Labour governments over the past decades - why didn’t they do something about it? It’s the sort of class war cause many of them would love, like hunting.
Maybe saying ‘remove charitable status on public schools’ is easier said than done?

@Summerishere12

I think posters on this tread are confusing CAT scores of 135+ needed to pass the exams with IQ scores which are a completely different kettle of fish..

I may very well have misunderstood. I thought CAT scores came as a SAS between 70 and 130? And the ones we got were in different areas eg reading, science, maths spelling, rather than an overall mark. The school never really explained it tbh. Some of the schools claim they use tests that aren’t heavily influenced by tutoring, whether that’s the case I’d leave to the educational experts!

What is the definition of a charity? What about the large ones who pay their senior leadership team a fortune and provide all sorts of employee perks? What about a historic house which the family live in and open to the public occasionally? What about the local farm park which operates as a tourist attraction?
I don’t think there’s anything to say that a charity has to provide services free of charge, just that they can’t make a profit. Private schools operating as charities certainly have to provide much more to the community than they used to. My kids have had swimming lessons and enrichment days, use of facilities in summer. Perhaps the value of bursaries should be based on the capital holdings of the business

Info on legal definitions of a charity

www.gov.uk/government/publications/what-makes-a-charity-cc4

Provision of education is a valid charitable aim. Charging fees for using charitable services is also permitted. Having means to reduce/waive fees for those who cannot access otherwise isvhighly desirable, but legally is neither necessary not sufficient

I don't necessarily think that charitable status should be revoked, but I do think the bar could be set higher in terms of what a school needs to do to qualify. Some do a lot - others that do a lot less. And it's not just about bursaries, which, although very worthwhile, each only help one child. There are other kinds of help which arguably benefit larger numbers - things like running free summer schools, letting other schools use your facilities for their school plays and sports events, lending out resources that state schools can't afford, working with other schools to provide training and partnership working, working with local charities to run collections or offer conference facilities or whatever they need, offering your students' time as volunteers, etc etc.

@BungleandGeorge, the schools I'm thinking of serve a population of about a million - two grammars, half a large county in realistic range but no distance rules so some DC come from much further away. The competition is ferocious. All of the DC I have known who have got in have a) been at the top of their cohort at primary school and b) been tutored. Plenty of DC who are academically very able just don't make it.

So the idea of 'average' DC getting in just doesn't fly.

I think charitable status is a red herring anyway. The schools are getting something in return. A true charitable gift or donation expects nothing; they are effectively buying talent at a discounted price, drawing talent away from other schools. A 15% discount might give them say the best trumpet player a comprehensive has, or the best mathematician. Both of whom will enhance said school's results, and adversely affect the results of the poorer state school... this perpetuating the cycle of 'oh the local school just doesn't get stellar results'
To go back to the original question I think it would be unrealistic to abolish private schools in once fell swoop. But I absolutely think they should al exist as the businesses they are rather than masquerading as something they are not.

If you use the criteria of giving without receiving anything in return you’d have to get of a huge amount of the current charitable giving and many institutions wouldn’t survive. It’s very common to provide something in return for the donation. What about charity shops? Gift aided admission and subscriptions ?
Most private schools have a very nominal amount (if anything) attached to scholarships, financial help is all means tested. Many of the scholarships are non academic, there are a very small amount of them, getting rid of them completely removes all the less well off students from private schools. They are an agreement between parent and school and nothing to do with the state. I’m very uncomfortable with having no choice over my own child, or is choice just for the rich?

I would argue that a 15 per cent discount (I only know about the sort of discounts given locally) makes it only available for the very comfortably off in any case. That sort of discount would still have put private education out of reach of of 90 per cent or more of the kids at my DC's school

15% probably wouldn't be enough to make any sort of difference to the fees

A dd of a friend of mine who was very musically talented went to a state school and then went to dds school for the 6th form completely free. She got a personalised timetable with fantastic music facilities and teaching and the school could add another Cambridge offer to its ranks so win win.

They offer means tested bursaries on top. Which aren’t attached to the scholarship but go to those with most to gain from the school which will include children with scholarships.
All these schools are separate businesses (not all charities) but I’d say it’s pretty unusual for an award of as much as 15% to be non means tested. I’m sure from the schools perspective they want the best and would be happy to offer a reduction to the best from whatever background. They can’t because of their charitable status though and in recent years the funding has been diverted to means tested bursaries.

Well yes. That's my point. She may of course have gotten the Cambridge offer from the state school. It's not unheard of in my personal and wider experience! Win for the private school (looks great in their figures); possible win for child - tho if that talented would likely have got to Cambridge anyway. And big fat lose for the state school who had no money to throw at the situation.

@shallIswim

Well yes. That's my point. She may of course have gotten the Cambridge offer from the state school. It's not unheard of in my personal and wider experience! Win for the private school (looks great in their figures); possible win for child - tho if that talented would likely have got to Cambridge anyway. And big fat lose for the state school who had no money to throw at the situation.

She wouldn't have got anywhere near the music support at the state. The private school offered what she needed.

Also, you can't give full bursaries to students who aren't insanely talented or don't have home lives that mean a full boarding bursary would be life changing. No full fee paying parent would be happy for bursaries to go to kids and families who don't play a significant part in the life of the school.

@Bryonyshcmyony she'd obviously gotten to a very high standard in the state system by the stage she switched. Musicians don't just magically transform at 16. You could also argue that a conservatoire or music school is more prestigious than Cambridge for a musician so she may have taken a different but more well trodden route from State.
But I completely accept that privately she'd have had more support with her application and the entrance tests for Cambridge. My DS who went and studied English there was left alone to sort that out and says he was def disadvantaged because nothing was laid on. .

@NellieEllie

Just want to say. Always been against private education. Had a kid. Diagnosed at 10 with ASD. People said to me “why d’you want to label him?”. My reply. “Because he’s already labelled, Slow, stupid, weird, lazy - by state schools. Appalling, truly APPALLING approach by state primary, then, after some improvement, by another state primary. Moved to private school. Total change in approach - 8 GCSEs excellent grades. If he’d gone to state school, most likely he would have failed.

My DH was opposed to Private schools. Full of over privileged weirdos who nobody in his village wanted to play with as well as very unfair and unnecessary as he had done well at his local Comp. Then PFB turned 10 and we started visiting local schools, both State and Private. He wasn’t keen on visiting the first Private school but we did. He was quite quiet but took it all in and on the way home said “if you could afford it why wouldn’t you send your child there?” We actually sent her to a different one for various reasons but the point is that a lot of people have certain opinions but when it comes to looking at the available options they choose the best one for their child.

[quote shallIswim]@Bryonyshcmyony she'd obviously gotten to a very high standard in the state system by the stage she switched. Musicians don't just magically transform at 16. You could also argue that a conservatoire or music school is more prestigious than Cambridge for a musician so she may have taken a different but more well trodden route from State.
But I completely accept that privately she'd have had more support with her application and the entrance tests for Cambridge. My DS who went and studied English there was left alone to sort that out and says he was def disadvantaged because nothing was laid on. . [/quote]
Yes she had, her mum teaches music. But she wanted somewhere where she would be supported during A levels without having to fit in driving from place to place. She also sang to a very high standard and the school choir is superb. I think the tailored timetable for extra curric during A levels is why a lot join.

@NellieEllie - completely agree. Have seen too many bright kids with ASD destroyed by their experience in state. They often end up massively underachieving as they don't feel safe. Obviously, it depends on the child but there definitely needs to be proper provision for them - why should parents have to pay for this? Am so pleased your DS has flourished - I'd do the same in a heartbeat tbh having seen this scenario first-hand so many times

Nellie Ellie- Totally agree that State Schools can destroy children with additional needs like ASD.

I have four children 3 at Grammar schools and the youngest will be going into year 8 with ASD at a Secondary Modern (though i don't like that term). The Secondary school was alright for DD 3 thoughout year 7, despite the obvious and additional difficulties Covid created for the school.
However, the school have informed me that DD 3 is one of their most academic children, so i will need to be prepared to act if the school can not meet DD's needs.

This meaning either academically or equally likely social interaction problems . Thus, might need to consider moving her to a Private school in year 9 or possibly let her have a go at a 13+ e.t.,if a place became available at a Grammar.

@Bryonyshcmyony

'Also, you can't give full bursaries to students who aren't insanely talented or don't have home lives that mean a full boarding bursary would be life changing. No full fee paying parent would be happy for bursaries to go to kids and families who don't play a significant part in the life of the school.'

Parents and other pupils have zero right to know who is awarded bursaries. Bursaries are completely different to scholarships which, these days, are mainly honorary or give rise to a small discount.

Westminster School are one of the forerunners in taking their societal/charitable obligations very seriously. They actually teach some Harris Academy students together with their own paying students. In addition, it is their aim to go entirely 'needs blind' by 2040. That means that they will choose who comes in solely on the basis of their examination and those who cannot afford to pay will be given a 100% bursary.

www.westminster.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Westminster-Campaign-Brochure.pdf

'Westminster School is embarking on a major new campaign
to transform the lives of as many young people as possible
and to enrich the experience of every pupil at Westminster
in the process. This Campaign is a declaration of the
School’s commitment to providing life-changing bursaries
to young people who show exceptional academic ability,
passion and potential for learning, regardless of their
financial circumstances.
Our ambition is to become truly needs blind, so that any
young person can gain an outstanding education based
on merit alone.'

but the point is that a lot of people have certain opinions but when it comes to looking at the available options they choose the best one for their child
Yes indeed. Shami Chakrabarti and Diane Abbot come to mind.