Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@BungleandGeorge,

Yes, the school I am using as an example would be selecting for a bright but not brilliant profile.

Over the country, last I read, the private school average IQ was 8-10 points higher than the national average.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure most of them also select based on attitude and behaviour hence the interviews and school reports. And let’s face it that is just as a important if not more so when it comes to what results are obtained.

My DCs Private school is completely non selective.
If you can pay and there is a place that’s that.
There is no 6th form either so no weeding out after GCSEs
Funnily enough it was much harder to get her into her State 6th form college.

@BungleandGeorge, I'm not normally rude, so I apologise, but I was aghast at your comments.

I am very familiar with an area with very few grammars, most of which have no distance criteria (so no, not Kent...) Highly intelligent DC who are tutored very well do not necessarily get in. There is no way that an 'average' child would pass, not with any amount of input. Otherwise the private preps nearby would get virtually all their intake into the grammars down the road, and they don't.

Probably spanning average but intensively tutored through to exceptionally bright. is not remotely true of the schools I am thinking of. The 'exceptionally bright' have usually had a year's rigorous tutoring to get in. This ensures that these grammars are no longer the engines of social mobility that they were when I benefitted from them. Distance criteria would help there, but the heads in question are so wedded to their stellar results and outdoing each other that I can't see them introducing them.

@entrytohr yes you are right about that... but aside from grammar and private schools, there is still a massive range of state schools too. And parents fight to get into them through house-buying nearby, still creating an unequal playing field where the more affluent win. I'm a part of that, as I have just had an offer accepted on a property that I specifically chose because it is one street away from one of the top few state primary schools in the county we have just moved to (based upon attainment data) which has a small catchment area. Another option 10 minutes away has poor data (few children achieving 'expected' standards, none achieving higher, low progress, poor ofsted etc)... and house prices are cheaper. So we chose to pay more for the one house we could find in the area by the much better school. Others might not have that choice (or might not study the data or know much about it) so my children have an advantage, despite both schools being in the state sector. The same sort of thing applies at secondary school level. If private schools and grammar schools are abolished, this sort of thing will just be exacerbated. It will never be equal (as dismal as that sounds!).

@thereluctantphoenix

"Yes, point taken, although in the short term it is also due to an absence of reliable data on which to set, due to lockdown."

Ooh - can you please point me to that data on setting? I didn't actually realise it existed publicly! Will make interesting reading, even if there is, as you say, a delay in data collection!

Am I right in saying primary schools aren’t allowed to prepare pupils for grammar school entrance? (Sorry - it’s a long time since my children were that age)
If so, no wonder children with parents who can afford tutors or are invested in their children’s education are at an advantage.

Yes.
Also abolish any school with any entrance requirements such as grammar schools and church schools. Kids should go to their local school and steps taken to try and make their catchment areas as diverse as possible.

I bet there would be a
Lot more interest in helping failing schools.

@bungleandgeorge
"I’m pretty sure most of them also select based on attitude and behaviour hence the interviews and school reports."

To an extent, yes, but that's not necessarily always easy to pick up in an interview, and reports aren't always honest. Plus in my experience the majority of pupils applying do demonstrate decent behaviour and attitude (on entrance exam day anyway!) - I have come to expect it. IME it's the exception to not accept a child based upon poor behaviour/attitude.

Privats schools do differ on what they are looking for, too. Some schools go for very academic children who they think will get those top grades, and everything else is a lesser (or no) priority. Others want 'all rounders' - so will accept a less academic child if they're good at sport, drama etc. In fact, some care about their sporting reputation so much that this takes a massive priority and some pupils will get in despite having very low exam scores because they are the county's best hockey player etc. And other schools want bright, assertive, confident pupils who they hope will be leaders - they do debating as part of their selection process, for instance. It really does vary widely. Oh yes and then some are non-selective. And some, don't forget, are private SEN schools.

@surreygirl1987,

I don’t know why you are being so aggressive to me.

Setting within a school requires internal exam and test data. With many of these being sat at home in lockdown, schools did not have enough data to reliably set, so used bands or did not set.

[quote surreygirl1987]@entrytohr yes you are right about that... but aside from grammar and private schools, there is still a massive range of state schools too. And parents fight to get into them through house-buying nearby, still creating an unequal playing field where the more affluent win. I'm a part of that, as I have just had an offer accepted on a property that I specifically chose because it is one street away from one of the top few state primary schools in the county we have just moved to (based upon attainment data) which has a small catchment area. Another option 10 minutes away has poor data (few children achieving 'expected' standards, none achieving higher, low progress, poor ofsted etc)... and house prices are cheaper. So we chose to pay more for the one house we could find in the area by the much better school. Others might not have that choice (or might not study the data or know much about it) so my children have an advantage, despite both schools being in the state sector. The same sort of thing applies at secondary school level. If private schools and grammar schools are abolished, this sort of thing will just be exacerbated. It will never be equal (as dismal as that sounds!).[/quote]
See, we don't really have that here. They're all about equal within state thankfully (not bad, not excellent). It does seem to be a massive issue in larger cities though. It's all part of that postcode lottery, it all needs levelling so that all kids are on a playing field where they at least have the option to compete fairly. Those from disadvantaged backgrounds have enough hurdles without also having to battle over unequal schooling

"I don’t know why you are being so aggressive to me."

Eh? @thereluctantphoenix what on EARTH are you talking about? How in the world am i being aggressive? I just asked you to direct me to the data as I didn't know it existed and I'm fascinated - I'm an educational researcher!

All I said was:
"Ooh - can you please point me to that data on setting? I didn't actually realise it existed publicly! Will make interesting reading, even if there is, as you say, a delay in data collection!"

I misunderstood what you were saying that's all. You've just clarified you meant internal school data - I thought you meant externally collected data and that you were referring to my point about there being a trend to not setting. Chill out a bit - was literally just excited about the prospect of there being a source of independent school data I hadn't yet come across!

@surreygirl1987,

Ok, apologies, I thought you were being sarcastic. It is hard to read tone into written posts.

Yes, was referring to internal data.

[quote surreygirl1987]@bungleandgeorge
"I’m pretty sure most of them also select based on attitude and behaviour hence the interviews and school reports."

To an extent, yes, but that's not necessarily always easy to pick up in an interview, and reports aren't always honest. Plus in my experience the majority of pupils applying do demonstrate decent behaviour and attitude (on entrance exam day anyway!) - I have come to expect it. IME it's the exception to not accept a child based upon poor behaviour/attitude.

Privats schools do differ on what they are looking for, too. Some schools go for very academic children who they think will get those top grades, and everything else is a lesser (or no) priority. Others want 'all rounders' - so will accept a less academic child if they're good at sport, drama etc. In fact, some care about their sporting reputation so much that this takes a massive priority and some pupils will get in despite having very low exam scores because they are the county's best hockey player etc. And other schools want bright, assertive, confident pupils who they hope will be leaders - they do debating as part of their selection process, for instance. It really does vary widely. Oh yes and then some are non-selective. And some, don't forget, are private SEN schools.[/quote]
I agree with this. The difference between schools can be night and day. We loved our first Indi as the culture of the school was very nurturing, spent at lot of the time outside in the grounds ( they had woods)spent a lot of time confidence building and public speaking. It was a very close knit school. We had to leave because the senior school grades were never going to set the academic world alight . No entrance exam & every one is a winner. High in take of SN - in fact 54%

The independent down the road was hothouse and admitted to 'suggesting' that children left in year five if they were "struggling". Entrance exam if joining in year 1 and upwards. It was business not a school.

Our new prep school is very academically driven, lots of female empowerment (girls school) shit loads of homework, lots of encouragement in class to attain grades. These kids are driven and the teachers expect a lot. Lots of focus on sports and clear winners at sports day/ reading comps/writing comps. No entrance exam.

[quote GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman]@BungleandGeorge, I'm not normally rude, so I apologise, but I was aghast at your comments.

I am very familiar with an area with very few grammars, most of which have no distance criteria (so no, not Kent...) Highly intelligent DC who are tutored very well do not necessarily get in. There is no way that an 'average' child would pass, not with any amount of input. Otherwise the private preps nearby would get virtually all their intake into the grammars down the road, and they don't.

Probably spanning average but intensively tutored through to exceptionally bright. is not remotely true of the schools I am thinking of. The 'exceptionally bright' have usually had a year's rigorous tutoring to get in. This ensures that these grammars are no longer the engines of social mobility that they were when I benefitted from them. Distance criteria would help there, but the heads in question are so wedded to their stellar results and outdoing each other that I can't see them introducing them.[/quote]
The criteria mentioned of IQ over 135 is something like top 1%, I honestly don’t think the majority of grammars only have pupils of that level. For a year group of 150 you’d need a pool of 15000 year 6’s. As for average I guess it depends on your definition! IQ up to 115 is often quoted and only 15% of the population is above that. In the 2 grammar areas I’ve been in you would have a good chance if you’re a bit below that but have been tutored extensively. The difference between grammar and comp is not so large as some areas and many children in private would not apply for grammar by choice. There may well be much greater pressure for places elsewhere, I was only aware of it in the south East. That’s crazy if the exceptional kids need tutoring. I’m aware there are different tests and some claim to rely less on prior learning. I wonder if that’s a realistic option

@Andante57

Am I right in saying primary schools aren’t allowed to prepare pupils for grammar school entrance? (Sorry - it’s a long time since my children were that age) If so, no wonder children with parents who can afford tutors or are invested in their children’s education are at an advantage.

Yes that’s right. In many cases teachers won’t even comment on whether your child has a chance of success at the 11+ either. I think that some of the types of questions on the 11+ aren’t covered at Primary school either so without prep of some kind it’s unlikely a child will do well. A friend of mine invigilates the 11+ and she says every year there are children who don’t actually know how to tackle the exam at all

Private schools do select on many different criteria not just academics but my point is that they are able to ‘select’ both on admission and to a lesser extent by suggesting or enforcing pupils leaving. The local comp isn’t able to do that so the student population is not comparable.
I’d also just like to make the point that many SENs are not in anyway linked to IQ. There’s a huge gap in the state system for bright children who also have SEN and many of the private institutions seek to fill that gap.

Hoppinggreen
Thank you for answering my question.
In that case it’s obvious that some children will have an advantage. Which government brought this law in I wonder?
I’ve read a lot about universities approaching schools in disadvantaged areas to widen access but primary schools refuse to help children from having a fair chance of getting into grammar schools.

State primaries will often do a little bit of extra prep for 11+ if requested by parents. Not sure any do prep with the entire class though so it will just be the parents who have already made the decision..

I don’t think schools ever prepped for the 11+ did they? I remember doing one practice test then the real thing. The curriculum is pretty full and they’re too busy prepping for sats these days. If kids need extensive tutoring to pass it’s the test that’s at fault isn’t it?

No.
My children are private my educated. Surely if I'm paying for it, it's three children less the state has to pay for?

Same goes for private medical care. Would you abolish that too? And private dentists?

If kids need extensive tutoring to pass it’s the test that’s at fault isn’t it

I suppose it is, but then is it possible to make a test which can’t be practised or tutored for?
My ds had to do cognitive intelligence and non verbal reasoning tests as the first part of his entrance exam to his senior school and although it was promoted as a test that couldn’t be prepared for, his prep school gave the children loads of practice in similar tests which must have helped.

I think posters on this tread are confusing CAT scores of 135+ needed to pass the exams with IQ scores which are a completely different kettle of fish..

I think it’s be hard to have tests which you couldn’t improve on by tutoring and practice.

Having local schools will mean that even more is dependent on catchment. Lotteries are the fairest - but unless you want to increase hassle/traffic for parents, you would probably have to have a clause having a sibling bias (ie increased chance for kids already there). Lotteries are probably only practical in cities.

I think private tutoring would increase a lot if you banned private schools. It’s be hard to ban that I guess.

Absolutely abolish private schools!

If they didn't exist and everyone went to a state school, then the government would invest so much more money into them, as they do in most of Europe.

My son attended a private school in Y4 to Y5. The parents were mostly hairdressers and gangsters and he put on weight as the school had such a small playing area.

The children in the state school he eventually attended we're actually more intelligent. That was a real eye-opener!

I think private tutoring would increase a lot if you banned private schools. It’s be hard to ban that I guess

If it was banned then UK would become like some aspects of the former East Germany where children had to reminded not to tell their classmates or teachers that they watch Western tv at home.

Children here would be warned on no account to let on that they’d been doing extra lessons at home, neighbours would be watching for visitors coming and going after the children got home from school, parcels would be checked to make sure textbooks weren’t inside and so on.