Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

Yes I feel that grammar schools are hideously unfair which I know is hugely hypocritical before anyone points it out 😂

@Bryonyshcmyony,

You clearly have zero idea of what you speak.

As you say (contradicting yourself), many schools sell themselves on different things, so t do I not fail.

There are various consortium schools who all make their pupils sit the same 11+. The difference is what mark a pupil needs to secure an offer.

If you think about the process, it is quite complex. A school cannot send out too many offers as, if they all get accepted, they cannot accommodate the pupils. Nor can they send too few, as they need to fill themselves.

An intermediate school will send a lot of offers to the strongest pupils, knowing most will be rejected, but hoping some will be accepted. They will send the ‘right’ amount of offers to their average pupil (say a cognitive score of 115-125) and a few insurance offers and a waiting list to the weaker pupils.

This is why private schools set and grammar’s don’t (such as Tiffin). No point in setting when everyone is strong.

@thereluctantphoenix actually the last 3 private schools (all HMC) that I've worked in don't set for almost any subject (except for maths in one of them)...

There is a massive range of private schools and they can't be lumped together.

Going back to the politics of this, it's not straightforward. For a start, there are many people who don't fit the assumptions on here, even at the Etons of this world. My DC are at a 'public' school (not Eton) and I have never voted Tory in my life and never will; I know many others who feel the same. Second, I do wonder whether the process of loosening the private school grip on certain areas of life is already underway - BJ, JRM and friends are in their 50s now, and I do get the sense that things are changing (with contextual University offers etc contributing to that).

Thirdly, although private schoolboys might still dominate certain areas of life such as politics and the judiciary, there are still many politicians who don't come from that background. Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and co presided over one of the most left-wing Labour parties there has been for many years. And what happened? They were destroyed, largely because the poorer communities in the NE etc deserted them in their droves. BJ is in power because people voted for him. Perhaps posters are suggesting that 'poor people' don't know what's good for them and need to be told how to vote??

@surreygirl1987,

If you read my posts, that is precisely what I have been saying!

Surprised at your experiences though.

I think if you don’t live in London, it’s hard to comprehend the situation and what a quest it is to get your child into a decent school. And no, it’s not easy to get even into a less academic private one, more people can’t afford the boarding fees, so scramble for day private/grammar places is unreal. Because the alternative is not going to be a nice village school or a nice neighbourhood comp…

Results don’t only depend on the intrinsic intelligence of a student, they also depend on teaching standards, expectations and pressure put on the child.
Most private schools are selective, they take average upwards. Personally I’d rather my child was not scraping the bottom of a school that I’d tutored them to get into. I think that’s less common if people pay as money provides choice. It’s much more common that people do that to get into grammar. Be definition most children are ‘average’ intelligence so of course that is what most private schools take for the majority. The problem for non selective schools is that they have to take disruptive pupils teen if they don’t have facilities to cater for them the average intelligence, well behaved reasonably motivated ones do better when they’re not with the disruptive ones. If you make it into top sets at a state comp you’re a lot better off than if you’re in bottom set.

"I think if you don't live in London, it's hard to comprehend the situation and what a quest it is to get your child into a decent school*
Hmm. I think if you do live in London, it's hard to understand just how limited the choice can be in rural areas. We have maybe 3 secondary schools within a half hour bus journey; where BIL lives, they have only 2, neither of which is up to much. It certainly used to be the case that while education authorities in urban areas for extra funding for various things, rural ones nothing towards their transport costs. All the DC around here, unless their parents are on benefits, have to pay for their transport to VIth Form. The nearest one is 9 or 10 miles away.

You can apply for a more distant school, or go private, but you end up with DC leaving the house at 7.40 and not getting home till 4.45.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

"I think if you don't live in London, it's hard to comprehend the situation and what a quest it is to get your child into a decent school* Hmm. I think if you do live in London, it's hard to understand just how limited the choice can be in rural areas. We have maybe 3 secondary schools within a half hour bus journey; where BIL lives, they have only 2, neither of which is up to much. It certainly used to be the case that while education authorities in urban areas for extra funding for various things, rural ones nothing towards their transport costs. All the DC around here, unless their parents are on benefits, have to pay for their transport to VIth Form. The nearest one is 9 or 10 miles away.

You can apply for a more distant school, or go private, but you end up with DC leaving the house at 7.40 and not getting home till 4.45.

Well, my children leave at 7.20, have 8 lessons a day, finish at 4.10 and it takes an hour to travel back home. They are just used to it. The alternative is being beaten up daily for being different at a local scary comp. (It’s not my imagination by the way, I just read local mums’ groups and their DC experiences).

You clearly have zero idea of what you speak

Oh fgs

The arrogance of you! I doubt Lord Lordship at Eton has half your hubris!

Perhaps posters are suggesting that 'poor people' don't know what's good for them and need to be told how to vote??

There’s no ‘perhaps’ about it! Not judging by the numerous comments I’ve read on here and even a couple of threads proposing that voters should take a test before they are allowed to vote (this was after the EU referendum). I was amazed by how many people agreed.

@Summerishere12

I think if you don’t live in London, it’s hard to comprehend the situation and what a quest it is to get your child into a decent school. And no, it’s not easy to get even into a less academic private one, more people can’t afford the boarding fees, so scramble for day private/grammar places is unreal. Because the alternative is not going to be a nice village school or a nice neighbourhood comp…

Agree that the situation in London is going to be quite different. Just based on population there are going to be a much higher number of exceptionally bright children. Real estate prices are so high that it’s probably more difficult to set up a profitable private school. In other areas of the country grammar schools take a range of ability. Probably spanning average but intensively tutored through to exceptionally bright. And yes they do have sets because of the range of ability. They’re geographically spread out so you’ll also get a fair number of bright kids who don’t want to or cat afford to travel 20 miles to school

You only need to look at A level results and leavers destinations, though, to see how selective a school is. You see the Westminsters etc getting virtually all of their pupils to Russell Group unis and a high percentage to Oxbridge, the next level down will be 2-3 Oxbridge places a year, most to Russell, but a fair few not etc

Reluctantphoenix exactly so if the results are there for all to see why do schools have to play games trying to appear more selective.
You’ve lost me there.

@Andante57,

The schools want a ‘profile’ of abilities. They want to know roughly where pupils sit, and also do want to select. But they are not all selecting the ‘best of the best’, they are selecting for (say) an average cognitive score of 115, and no one below 95. Of course, they want the very bright, and will get a few of them due to other factors.

But, private schools need pupils. They want parents to choose them. Flattering parents is very much part of the game. If a parent has 2 offers for their child, if they think the child has been chosen as being very smart, they will more likely choose the school.

"In other areas of the country grammar schools take a range of ability*

Sorry, but you have no idea. Where there is only a handful of grammar schools, the competition is ferocious.

"If you read my posts, that is precisely what I have been saying!"

@TheReluctantPhoenix no it's not... you said 'This is why private schools set' and I corrected you by pointing out that this is not always the case. In fact, there is an increasing trend NOT to set or stream, due in part to educational research on the topic.

Thank you for answering my question, reluctantphoenix.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Andante57,

The schools want a ‘profile’ of abilities. They want to know roughly where pupils sit, and also do want to select. But they are not all selecting the ‘best of the best’, they are selecting for (say) an average cognitive score of 115, and no one below 95. Of course, they want the very bright, and will get a few of them due to other factors.

But, private schools need pupils. They want parents to choose them. Flattering parents is very much part of the game. If a parent has 2 offers for their child, if they think the child has been chosen as being very smart, they will more likely choose the school.[/quote]
TheReluctantPhoenix, I would recommend a quick read of “secondary education” here on mumsnet, and what kind of “hoops” parents and children have to jump through to secure a place at private schools in London, and how many kids end up without offers at all. I think you should help parents over there by recommending local private schools with less applicants than places.

@surreygirl1987,

Yes, point taken, although in the short term it is also due to an absence of reliable data on which to set, due to lockdown.

What I meant is that I said that there were many different types of private school.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

"In other areas of the country grammar schools take a range of ability*

Sorry, but you have no idea. Where there is only a handful of grammar schools, the competition is ferocious.

No need to be rude I think I have as much idea as you. I know lots of children who’ve passed the 11+ and lots at grammar schools. They certainly don’t all have IQ over 135. And many had 2 years tutoring, which may get you into the school but doesn’t increase your ability when you get there. Many grammars also use distance criteria so it’s not based purely on test scores. And some areas have high uptake of private schools or good comps. They absolutely have a range of ability for many reasons.

@SpaceBethSmith

Private schools are a self fulfilling prophecy. They only take smart kids so they get the highest grades.

Oh yes and turf the not so bright ones out before A Levels. And tweak the stats too! Oh yes they do.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Andante57,

The schools want a ‘profile’ of abilities. They want to know roughly where pupils sit, and also do want to select. But they are not all selecting the ‘best of the best’, they are selecting for (say) an average cognitive score of 115, and no one below 95. Of course, they want the very bright, and will get a few of them due to other factors.

But, private schools need pupils. They want parents to choose them. Flattering parents is very much part of the game. If a parent has 2 offers for their child, if they think the child has been chosen as being very smart, they will more likely choose the school.[/quote]
Presuming you’re using a standard scale with around 100 as average, 115 is above average intelligence? It’s certainly higher than the average at a totally non selective school would likely be?

@BungleandGeorge,

Yes, the school I am using as an example would be selecting for a bright but not brilliant profile.

Over the country, last I read, the private school average IQ was 8-10 points higher than the national average.

I don't think the way education's so uneven across the country helps, and I'd say that's currently more of an issue than private schools alone in my opinion. It's much wider than private vs. state.

Where I live there's 2 private schools within a 45 minute drive. I counted to 15 state secondaries and then gave up. We have no grammars. There's no 11+, just standard academies. We're an area with high levels of poverty despite low costs of living.

I'm in the north east and those who want to escape their beginnings seem to end up moving away as we don't have the city jobs. You're looking at care, admin, NHS, recruitment, teaching, or manual jobs mostly for local employment. Those who move are then competing against people who are from areas that have grammar schools, so they had that chance even if their parents couldn't afford private. That automatically impacts on their chances within some areas of employment, as before they've even left school it had a part to play in their likelihood of achieving high exam results.

There's various debates around things like private tutoring for the 11+ meaning it isn't a level playing field (which needs sorting. 2 students in the same area, with the same levels of academic ability, should both have the same chances of entry but currently don't), but it's even less even if you've had no possibility of using it. The whole education system needs levelling. Private, grammar and state.

I'm on the fence about private schools, but banning them won't solve social inequality and issues within mobility if we still have a system which works with such a postcode lottery.

Good post @entrytohr , I think we also have to address faith schools which are always convenient left out of the debate. The idea that someone can gain access to a better school through their (supposed) faith is just as difficult.

Round us there is one amazing state school which is a CoE school and one rubbish one. Many parents go private because the CoE school is so oversubscribed that there are only one to two places a year for those who don’t go to church.