Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

@Bryonyshcmyony

Imagine the kids left behind if they don't get into the selective school

I would do away with selective schools.

The problem is Working Class White children have been left to rot, while diversity and political correctness, has led to over promotion of other ethnic groups.

No it isn’t. The government in their obnoxious culture war would have you believe that. FSM kids are being failed, yes, but it’s not because black kids are being showered with resources, the government are failing them too.

They want you to fight over scraps.

However, a large number of white working class families have no interest in their children achieving academically. The reason being it is likely to alter their lifestyle dynamic, whether that be financially or though any effort insuring hours academic study.

@AlexaShutUp - couldn't agree more and it's nice to see another pp who can see beyond their own experience. Unsurprisingly the "I'm alright Jack" and "It's not my problem" brigade who are well insulated by their wealth are just the same as our so-called "leaders". British society is increasingly unequal and those who think that it's not their problem remind me of the Victorian benefactors who used to decide how deserving or undeserving the poor were. Depressing in that I fear we will have many more years of Tory rule. However this is MN isn't it so I guess I should expect no less. I also don't believe that aspirations for one's own DC should mean not giving a shiny sht about the DC of parents who don't have the economic, educational or cultural currency to give to their children. All I see on here is success measured in As, Oxbridge and seven figure salaries. Thank goodness that some of us have alternative ideas about what constitutes a successful and valuable life.

But what’s the goal really? To get 100% of population to university? People are not carbon copies of each other, through history there were always successful people/rich people/poor people. We are all wired differently, you can’t expect 100% of children to achieve A*, but children that are academic and want to study have more opportunities in uk than anywhere in the world.

Agree @noblegiraffe. Ludicrous to suggest that other ethnic groups are being "over promoted". The government is failing deprived kids of all ethnicities.

Of course saying it's not my problem is honest and realistic

I'm not a teacher, not in a position of power and don't use state education. If you think that makes me a twat, fair enough, but getting huffy that I'm not caring enough or doing anything is just silly.

Yes absolutely

Some disabled people don’t have access to care, some single parents live in temporary accommodation, etc, what are you doing about it? Or are you “alright Jack” because it does not affect you?

I find the poster very hypocritical by the way, with a child in a “super selective grammar populated by elites” it’s very easy to dictate other people that they should not seek selective education for their own

FSM kids are being failed, yes, but it’s not because black kids are being showered with resources, the government are failing them too.

And when large numbers of children are being failed - all of us are being failed. The loss of opportunity for our whole country that results from the loss of opportunity for some individuals is a huge cost to us all.

I look around my area and if a signficant proportion of children are not doing well, however well my children do as individuals, the area will not thrive as it could.

All I see on here is success measured in As, Oxbridge and seven figure salaries. Thank goodness that some of us have alternative ideas about what constitutes a successful and valuable life.*

Yes, totally agree. My dd is a high achiever academically and I do really value her achievements, but if her only aspiration was to make a 7 figure salary, I'd feel that I had failed as a parent.

but if her only aspiration was to make a 7 figure salary, I'd feel that I had failed as a parent

Well a 7 figure salary might be a bit much 😂, but there's nothing wrong with young women wanting to earn very well

@Bryonyshcmyony

but if her only aspiration was to make a 7 figure salary, I'd feel that I had failed as a parent

Well a 7 figure salary might be a bit much 😂, but there's nothing wrong with young women wanting to earn very well

No, and I absolutely want her to be financially independent - my own mother encouraged this in me and I'm very grateful for it. However, I would like her to have aspirations beyond her own selfish wants. She is aspiring to be a doctor, so she should be able to do both.

I'm sure most kids have aspirations beyond being selfish.

State grammar schools never did and still don’t encourage ‘social mobility’.

@Summerishere12,

I am afraid that you do come across as smug.

There is a difference between being aspirational for one’s child, and being happy to stamp on others’ heads to achieve it.

Again, nothing wrong with buying one’s child a good education, but not understanding or being interested in the hurdles other bright children face is another matter.

Those who are fortunate should look to help the less fortunate, and that applies very much to private schools. Most bursaries go to middle class families, not the truly needy. For some schools, this is not for want of trying, but it required real outreach to identify the truly needy abs worthy students, and to get them to apply.

@Bryonyshcmyony

I'm sure most kids have aspirations beyond being selfish.

Yes, I would hope so.

Again, nothing wrong with buying one’s child a good education, but not understanding or being interested in the hurdles other bright children face is another matter

I understand it. I can't do anything about it personally. I'm glad the school the dds go to work with a charity to identify kids who would benedift from a private education and give full bursaries, it's certainly been life changing for some, is it there to appease wealthy parents guilt, maybe

@Bryonyshcmyony,

There is actually a lot you can do about it!

Give money to an appropriate charity or fund a bursary or part of one yourself (if you can afford it). It is a little sickening how easily some private schools can raise millions for a new building from parents, but raising a few hundred thousand for bursaries is incredibly hard.

Also, state schools need volunteers for all sorts of things, from reading to little ones to offering work and experience opportunities to sixth formers. Also, state schools are crying out for well educated and well connected governors.

If you have money and/or time, a little goes a long way. A poster upthread casually mentioned that charitable status was ‘only’ worth £200/pupil/term to the private sector. This would represent a 15% uplift in the state sector.

No, private school parents cannot rescue the UK education system, but equally they cannot morally wash their hands of it altogether. It is a fact that virtually all the UK economic growth since the late 90s has gone to the top quintile of earners. It is more than timely to give a little back.

Of course I can't afford to fund a bursary
What a ridiculous suggestion

And I work ft so can't volunteer and wouldn't want to anyway.

I pay tax for my state school place which I don't use. That's about it.

@HoppingHamster

It’s not about the money, I’d have no issue with parents paying extra for the really good things that private schools bring to the table and if private schools were willing to do more for the poor and needy

What exactly do you want them to do? Do BUPA give bursaries? Do companies loan their staff out for free in disadvantaged communities? Does David Lloyd let groups on low incomes use their facilities? Do Amazon and Google and Facebook pay their workers more and management less to protect people from poverty in the first place…do they even pay their TAXES in order to put something back into society? Have charities always spent a fair proportion of their income on charitable activities? Are the charitable foundations of large firms set up with purely philanthropist practises at their core?

No. Private schools do more for “the poor and needy” than many other organisations already. Bursaries are in some cases quite widely available. Many schools already share their resources (staff and facilities) with state schools in the community. Is it enough to earn their charitable status, I don’t know, I’m no expert. But if you take that away and increase fees by 20% you’ll have a huge number of families wanting places in the state system that aren’t available.

You don’t seem to be as worried about this though as the extent to which people make connections through schools, I have built a successful career from a state school background and don’t feel that it disadvantaged me when it came to forming relationships. People have been far more interested in choices and networks I’ve made since then, the way I’ve overcome challenges and different situations.

The way to get more people from a poorer backgrounds into those jobs is to start making the system fairer

Again, the people at fault here are the employers. How do you expect private schools to influence this? What I really despair of is the idea that the best way to make a system fair is to dumb down achievements at the top end in order to make achievements at the bottom end look “less bad”.

It’s easy to attack private schools, the elite, etc etc. To really make a difference you have to focus on raising the achievements and opportunities of those at the bottom. That’s the job of the state, communities, families together. Not just private schools.

Private schools are businesses that are masquerading as charities. Their business model essentially depends on excluding less able pupils in order to achieve greater success and justify greater fees. They should not have charitable status unless their main purpose is charitable. How many charities main aim is profit rather than providing the service they raise funds for? Even if you can pay and would greatly benefit from the advantages that a particular school would give you, there is no guarantee they’ll let you in as you may not fit their business model.

I realise that they do a lot more than other organisations but in a great many cases it’s a token gesture to retain their charitable status. If they want to be a charity then they should be charities but let’s face it, the great majority of parents send their kids to private school so that they get a head start that is not available to those of more modest means.

I’m glad you have made a success of your life, I’m glad you beat the odds. You prove it can be done. Fifty percent of ftse 100 CEO’s went to state schools and the rest went to private school. Sounds great until you realise that only 7% of the population went to private school. So the system isn’t fair and the state should not be extending a helping hand to those who have more than enough advantage already.

Your second point about employers is correct but again the system is loaded against those who are less privileged. Every one likes to think that people like them are best at what they do. They go into an interview candidates and their ideal candidate looks and sounds like them. It’s a recognised factor. I know two barristers. One is a successful barrister in the criminal law and privately educated and the other works for a Union. Comprehensive education and despite being really good at what he does he admits that his accent (broad northern) excluded him from large sections of law as he didn’t fit the mould.

How do you stop pale, male and stale men employing younger versions of themselves? Simple, remove some of their privilege by making sure that oxbridge and Russell group graduates reflect the society they live in by removing obstacles for the less well off and making it harder for the wealthy to game the system. They will always game it to some extent but let’s make it harder for them to do that.

How do you stop pale, male and stale men employing younger versions of themselves?

What, white males? Surely plenty of white middle class men at state schools!

@travellinglighter,

Private schools don’t make a profit, they are not allowed to.

@Bryonyshcmyony

How do you stop pale, male and stale men employing younger versions of themselves?

What, white males? Surely plenty of white middle class men at state schools!

Of course, the point I’m making is that if you go into the professions then it is much easier if you look and sound in a certain way. “Pale, male and stale” was short cut to express that.