Should private schools be abolished?

[JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam]

Link.

I found this an interesting article. I did not realise that we now have one of the worst social mobility records in developed countries. I find this concerning. I am a fan of the grammar school system having been educated in one myself and having a DC who attends one. I have little experience of private schools though. If I'm honest if I had the money I wouldn't hesitate to use a private school, but that is down to the fact that I realise that it gives a leg up to the students attending, however I realise that this should not be the case.

Should we abolish private schools in the interest of fairness?

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@travellinglighter,

Private schools don’t make a profit, they are not allowed to.[/quote]
Lots of private schools are not for profit and lots of them aren’t. They call themselves not for profit to maximise the income from their charitable status. Eton made a surplus(profit) of£3.2 million last year.

Not
all
private
schools
are
Eton

Bryonyshcmyony

Who said they were. I was using it as an example.

@travellinglighter,

A surplus is not a profit. It just goes into school funds where it can be used for long term investment (buildings etc) or into things like bursaries.

You cannot be a charity and make a profit.

Actually, at 6th form it’s more like 20% attending private school, 7% is the overall figure that includes prep schools, at secondary levels it’s more than double.

Plus most private sixth forms are selective, so it’s not surprising that people that passed exams to join those sixth forms get into universities and then get better jobs. They’ve been selected on their ability. It’s funny how people think you can just pay to get into a private secondary, with 15 people per place in London it’s not that easy actually.

There are many types of private schools not just the highly academic type for privileged progeny that most people envisage. Many children don't fit into the mainstream school system and need an alternative option. My youngest now attends a tiny, highly pastoral and bespoke private school after being totally and irrevocably crushed by his mainstream schooling experience. Without the option of finding an alternative private schooling provider he would have been left without an education.

@Bryonyshcmyony

Not all private schools are Eton

^ Totally this.

@Summerishere12,

They are not as selective as you think. Very few parents put their children down for just one school, so although there are multiple students per place, most students also apply to multiple schools. Of course the top schools are very selective, but many are not.

Sixth forms are actually the least selective as many private schools run them at a loss. Many students leave after year 11 for the state sector for a variety of reasons.

No. If they value education, richer people will always find ways to help their children with private tuition, better resources at home, etc.

It’s just like private medical/dental, people think it’s a good thing to have the option to go private because less people pulling at the NHS is helpful, right?

But it actually it just creates a 2 tier system where anyone who expect better service, waiting times, facilities…etc are told to pay for it and everyone else is told to gratefully accept a low standard because ‘it’s free’!

Systematically if there were no option to pay and get ‘better’ then the base expectations and standards would rise dramatically for everyone.

However, that’s a moot point really as we simply don’t have a competent enough infrastructure/organisation to make it happen, if tomorrow all private hospitals/schools were abolished and taken over by state it would be a shambles. Public schools can’t afford whiteboard pens… what do you think they’d do with 15 acres, a swimming pool and 30 horse stables? They’d be abandoned and unusable within weeks

They are not as selective as you think

Many are. Of course they are. Stop trying to mumsnetsplain private schools to people who use them.

@Bryonyshcmyony,

Ok.

Sorry.

I clearly know just how shops and hospitals work having used them.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Summerishere12,

They are not as selective as you think. Very few parents put their children down for just one school, so although there are multiple students per place, most students also apply to multiple schools. Of course the top schools are very selective, but many are not.

Sixth forms are actually the least selective as many private schools run them at a loss. Many students leave after year 11 for the state sector for a variety of reasons.[/quote]
I don’t know about your kids, but mine found their private school exams much harder than Tifffin and Wilsons grammar, because they had to also do well in an academic interviews to secure their places. I also have friends with children in those grammar schools and it appears that DC get more homework and more tests to prepare in their private schools, so not sure what are you talking about them being “not as hard to get into”. Actually it was very hard and took years of preparation.

Honestly outside London there are many almost non selective independents. Passing the exam to get in my ds school is pretty straightforward and they have an fairly large SEN dept. An increasing number of parents choose independents precisely because they can cater for individual needs. Of course there are hothouses but there are also lots of mixed ability schools as well.

The most expensive school we paid for was a specialist school for our middle dc who had complex spld, a combination of ADD, dyspraxia and dyscalculia . Our local school said they would put him in the bottom set, they ‘thought it unlikely he would get a C in anything’ could not accommodate his music because ‘ bottom stream don’t do music’ and he would be in a class of 30 . Also said that they weren’t keen on taking people who didn’t come with funding ….nice to feel welcome.

Instead he ended up with several GCSEs at C above including English and maths and music , he played in the orchestra, was scorer for the cricket team , played squash, did cross country for the school, went on outward bound courses , sat on school council, and was head boy of his house.

Of the three boys he was in year 6 with who had similar issues and went onto the high school, one is in prison, one is unemployed, I am not sure about the third. My ds has a good job with the local authority , has managed to buy his own car and volunteers with a national charity five hours a week . All it needed was a bit of individual attention, I volunteer to help boys like him in primary school but my heart breaks for them when they go to secondary because they support just isn’t there.

@Summerishere12,

As an honest head of a private school told me once ‘if there were more pupils who wanted places than schools, more schools would open’. It is simple supply and demand.

Private schools are a pyramid with the super selective on top (St Paul’s, Westminster, Kings etc) all the way to schools where if you can afford to pay, you will get a place.

Where there is a bit of a game though is less selective schools wanting to appear to be more selective. They will all make pupils sit hard exams and an interview.

You obviously have connections in higher places, but my DC attend one of the schools on your list above and it was not that easy to get into, especially after a state primary, but of course all children are different and maybe others just “waltz” into it, who knows..

@Summerishere12,

I just know the sector well and, as I said, the top schools are super selective. The sector, as a whole , is not.

No one waltzes into any of those schools, so congratulations are due to your daughter!

@JoshLymanIsHotterThanSam there are no grammar schools available in many areas of the country. Surely if you believe that private schools should be abolished, so should grammar schools which are effectively only open to those in certain postcodes.
The answer has to be to focus on improving our state sector education across the board. Making quality education available to all.

Where there is a bit of a game though is less selective schools wanting to appear to be more selective. They will all make pupils sit hard exams and an interview

Thereluctantphoenix that sounds a bit daft as prep schools will see through that in no time.
If a so called selective school says it’s entrance exam is very hard then prep schools won’t put their less able pupils forward as they want as many as possible to pass into their first choice of senior school.
Also the school will be judged on its GCSE and A level results and if it isn’t really selective then it will be getting less good results and it won’t have many very clever children applying.
So the game playing school won’t get many students.

If then the less clever children start passing the so called ‘difficult’ entrance exam then the prep schools will realise what’s going on.

Could you let us know the names of the schools which practice this?

Where there is a bit of a game though is less selective schools wanting to appear to be more selective. They will all make pupils sit hard exams and an interview

Which schools are these? This is not widespread and these schools would fail. There are a few schools near me that aren't academically selective, one that does all the BTECs under the sun and has great pastoral care, some have academic selection but also good SEN support (Mill field for example which had never done well academically but obviously has the incredible sport) these schools make no secret of their entry criteria

Noone "pretends" to have a hard entrance exam 😂

@Andante57,

No! Not fair on the schools and the game is a bit more subtle.

You only need to look at A level results and leavers destinations, though, to see how selective a school is. You see the Westminsters etc getting virtually all of their pupils to Russell Group unis and a high percentage to Oxbridge, the next level down will be 2-3 Oxbridge places a year, most to Russell, but a fair few not etc

A prep school head did once tell me very bluntly, though, what cognitive scores various schools looked for (Kings apparently 135+, with the odd exception!).

If all schools were very selective, they would get mostly As and A* at a level and only send to top unis. Excluding the last two years, for the majority of private schools, that was not the case.

Amazing how you know all these private school heads!

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Summerishere12,

They are not as selective as you think. Very few parents put their children down for just one school, so although there are multiple students per place, most students also apply to multiple schools. Of course the top schools are very selective, but many are not.

Sixth forms are actually the least selective as many private schools run them at a loss. Many students leave after year 11 for the state sector for a variety of reasons.[/quote]
Isn’t it the case that a higher percentage of sixth formers are in private education compared to primary and secondary? I’m struggling to see how it’s the sixth forms making a loss when the fees are often higher and they receive less taught hours?

For me private education is particularly useful for those who aren’t ‘average’ so they have needs that just aren’t catered for at most state schools-SEN, talented at something non academic (sport, drama, music), very able, not very able, poor mental health. There just isn’t the funding to provide any sort of bespoke options in state schools unless you have funding attached to an EHCP, and those are actively blocked because they cost too much.
School is a horrible place for many children, if you have the money to buy choice I absolutely wouldn’t begrudge that. As a society we need to put more money into state schooling and be happy to make that a priority. It benefits us all, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that those with SEN are vastly over represented in the prison population

I have a much bigger issue with grammar schools. If parents can afford tutoring then they should send their kids to private school. To me it's grossly unfair that most kids that go to grammar only do so due to tutoring. Grammar school should be availble to any bright child, who can get in on their own merit without tutoring, this would enable brighter children from disadvantaged backgrounds a much higher chance of getting in, and would be fairer. However since there is no way of stopping tutoring for grammar, I think they should be either go, or bring other state schools up to the grammar standard.
Our educational system fails most un-academic children, and this is where politicians need to focus their attention and look at what schools can offer the large proportion of children who struggle with our current schooling system