If you are very clever, how did your parents help make that happen?

[rainbowfairylights]

Background: I have been with my DP for a couple of years now. Whilst we are both intelligent people with careers we are proud of, DP does seem to have a bit of an air of... I don't know, she's definitely more clever in the sense that she knows a lot.

There are huge differences between our childhoods - I was raised in a family of borderline neglect, didn't have any extra-curricular opportunities and went to an inner-city low ranking school. DP went to one of the best schools in the country, had a variation of extra-curricular going on from sport to music, and their family spend a lot of time doing things like general knowledge quizzes, playing board games, etc etc. I left school at 15 with a mix of grades, DP left at 18 with straight A's at the highest level possible.

I suppose I'm trying to figure out how much of a difference the things DP's parents did with her made, vs how I was raised. We are both successful now and I actually have more higher education success, but as I said, DP is definitely still the more intelligent one. If you have a similar type of intelligence to my lovely DP, can you pin it on childhood experiences, is it a luck of the draw, or more of a mix?

My husband and I are both academic (both have first class degrees from Oxford; he has a Masters and a PhD as well). But we come from quite different schooling backgrounds and it still shows up in the stuff we know (or in my case, don't know!).

I had a middle class childhood and my mum was a primary school teacher so I could read well before I went to school, basically spent all my time reading (virtually all fiction, like you OP). My Dad was interested in history so I picked up quite a lot of that too. I grew up in Wales and went to the local primary and local comprehensive. I'm naturally academically inclined, have an excellent memory and am hardworking, so I got top grades in everything. But when I went to Oxford I realised that there was just a whole world of "cultural capital" stuff I knew absolutely nothing about. I found that quite hard at the beginning and only really settled in when I found a bunch of people who, whilst not all having similar backgrounds, didn't really care about all that stuff.

My husband had a very different educational background (private primary, private secondary initially and then a very selective grammar). He just knows loads more stuff about economics, history and science than me. He is a voracious reader of both fiction and non-fiction and had an appetite for continued study in a way I just didn't (hence the PhD). Although he doesn't really fit in to the elite cultural capital world either, he was a lot further up the ladder than me when he started!

I'm a barrister now and have enough time under my belt not to care if I don't know something (I also know more!). If I'm lost in a conversation I usually just admit it, and then half the time others chime in too. But it has taken me literally 4/5 of my life so far to get to this point. I am no better a barrister and no more interesting a conversationalist now than I was in that earlier portion of my life. I'm just much more confident now. OP, sounds like you and your partner have all bases covered between you. Your children will have a good start in life.

Some of it is also about what interests you.

Many of my friends stem from my university days. We all had good academic qualifications to get there and stay there.

My own family (led it has to be said primarily by my Mother who possessed the sum total of 1 O-level) did lots of museums, art galleries, concerts, theatre, board games etc.

Whereas I see friends who are from much more affluent backgrounds who only really went to the pantomime as a child, or the museum on school trips.

These experiences have heavily influenced our general knowledge/ activities as adults. I still go to the theeatre/ galleries regularly. Most of them go only very rarely. The children are now teens/ tweens and it is often me who takes the to stuff. In fact one teen has identified that I have tate and v&a membership so am usually a good bet for the more esoteric exhibitions he wants to see that his parents baulk at paying the admission charges for....

I think it’s key too to distinguish between social capital (“polish”, social and financial confidence, ability to charm, to be socially at ease in “posh” situations, connections, knowing “U” etiquette and so on); and cultural capital (cultural and general knowledge that puts you in a position of being able to command a certain kind of knowledge about the world).

These things can overlap, but not always (in fact not as often as you think). Private schools can sometimes give you access to the latter, but most people are in fact paying for the former (and often confuse the two). I was a very clever child who already had the latter by the time I went to university; but I only gradually learned how to mimic some of the former - and will never be adept in some of it. Conversely, I work in Oxbridge academia and my 8 year old has more cultural capital than some of my colleagues quite frankly (she’ll probably never have their levels of social capital though). Don’t by any means assume that even high levels of academia = high cultural capital! Maybe in the arts and humanities - but I know more highly-paid professors than I could shake a stick at who wouldn’t know an opera if it bit them on the arse.

You don’t need private schooling to be curious and intellectually interested in the world. That isn’t the same as social advantage or privilege though - or the same thing as financial success.

@EveningOverRooftops

Deprived home here but my ‘cultural capital’ is pretty high.

Background - born in the 80s, school in the 90s early 2000s in a large city on free school meals

First I Went to a school where there was a high ratio kids from various backgrounds, races and countries so that certainly widens your base knowledge.

Second it was an underprivileged school so there was an absolute ton of stuff throw our way to broaden our horizons even more.

We had a dude that would bring animals into the school. Lemurs we’re the funniest but I was holding snakes and all sorts in primary school.
We had a string quartet come into school, sports stars and authors, we had funding to send us to the theatre and museums and galleries. We saw Shakespeare and the ballet. We had the chance to learn instruments for free. We had summer schools too and funded residential trips.
I loved when the nature rangers came in and took us for wild walks and pointed out all the plants and animals and insects and getting to spot kingfishers.

Also encouraged to go to the library and out school took us all to get sign up paper work we got our parents to fill in them cards were issued in school (library was next to the school)

Not bad for a working class girl in the Midlands on free school meals.

Basically, if you want to up your cultural capital it has to be accessible and the only way to do that is to fund it for the kids growing up in deprived homes.

Not all of us are going to enjoy it but hell, what a difference it would be to society if everyone had just a 10th of those experiences regardless of income 🤷🏻‍♀️

Oh, yes, if only our Education Secretary, Schools Minister (dare I say it Prime Minister) understood this and were prepared to actually properly fund it (as well as putting money back into Early Years and Sure Start) then that is levelling up.

My dad read to me and taught me to read. I always loved reading and writing and did that on my own/at school. He was also very into museums and cultural trips though which actually turned me off them because we did too much and it wasn't fun!

Fascinating thread.
It isn’t solely down to academics. DS’s Head at his prep said that he’s the most interesting kid in his class because of the way he thinks about things, debates, his knowledge on a wide area of topics. There are kids who are far more academic on tests/exams but who are very sheltered or who aren’t as confident. I’ve put a lot of emphasis on exposing DS to lots of different things through travel, volunteering, documentaries, attending events. He absolutely loves listening to LBC and I think he’s learned a lot from that, different perspectives, how to get his point across. These are all things I wasn’t exposed to as a kid but I did very well academically (PhD) and have a prestigious career, however, I had nowhere near his eloquence and confidence at his age.

So, academics take you far but confidence, eloquence, and cultural capital give you an edge.

Great post - agree with everything you said.

It sounds like your DP is more confident in her knowledge than you are. n.b Not a criticism!

I was brought up similarly to you, although it wasn't until after my father's death (I was ten) that I would say that some neglect came into my upbringing. I was lucky, I think. I was brought up in an Irish Catholic family where education was seen as very important. I had a great local library and spent every Saturday there taking out lots of books and reading every day. Because of the religion, I was able to go to a grammar school which was again all about the importance of education but also had an ethos of respect, telling the truth - if you did something against the rules and admitted it your "punishment" was very light indeed, a bit of a telling off but respect for telling the truth. If you lied you'd be on a lot of detentions.

I did reasonably well but could have done better. My time there was difficult with things at home being far from ideal so I coasted and didn't work as hard as I could have and frankly would have enjoyed.

From there I could have gone to university (or drama school which was an alternative) but I gave up on all of it and went to work. When I was thirty I decided to go to university and loved every minute of it.

I think that in my early years I was very confident thanks to a stable background. I lost a lot of that but somehow found some of it again and I'm happy to consider myself mad clever these days with no feeling that I'm full of myself. I continue to read every day, mostly fiction, with non-fiction of any area that soundly takes my fancy. For example I read Seven Brief Lessons on Physics by Carlo Rovelli because it was a short book that looked interesting and I knew very little about physics. It was bloody wonderful and I recommend it to anyone because you come away with it thinking that physics is actually thing of beauty. I listen to radio 4 more than most of my actual middle class friends. I like a good documentary and arthouse films. I also love things like the Great British Sewing Bee, romcoms, and mad action films where all that happens is lots of shooting and violence, John Wicks be still my beating heart.

I don't know where all of this comes from but it seems to me that you are, like me, curious about lots of things, open to learning and feel that education is a wonderful thing in and of itself. If you pass that on to your children you'll be giving them a gift that money can't buy. That and the knowledge that you love them and they are always good enough helps them to be more confident which, I guess, is half the battle.

Just read back. N.b. I don't think that only Irish Catholics are mad keen on education but I think as first-generation immigrants my parents felt the need to make sure we knew how important it was to do as well in school as we could without being pushy or making us feel that we were failures if we didn't get something right. Also, I don't think that Catholic schools are the best. I'm actually not keen on religious schools really but where I lived the best school was the one I got to go to and I wouldn't have been able to go there unless I was a practising Catholic. Like I said. Luck.

Just popping in to say I am a massive Bourdieu stan. Great man.

My folks did do quite a bit to encourage me in that regard - lots of reading, obviously, but also discouraged from watching crap telly. We'd watch period dramas, documentaries, sport rather than soaps. Days out involved a stately home rather than the zoo. My DM pushed me to read adult books (Austen, Dickens etc) by the time I was 12 (but it took me another year or two to get there). Both DPs discussed politics/issue with me on an equals level, and respected my opinion.

The above sounds a bit boring, but of course we had a lot of fun, and my siblings and I got up to plenty of silly nonsense, including watching soaps

My DH is extremely intelligent but has none of the cultural capital or whatever you want to call it. I don't think he was ever encouraged to be curious and school was something to be endured and left as soon as possible. Holidays were caravan parks.

I was definitely encouraged to read, extracurricular activities, encouraged to be curious and to learn for knowledge's own sake. Days out to stately homes encouraged to learn the history. Holidays around the Med visiting archaeological sites and encouraged to learn a bit of the language and culture.

On the down side I was pushed far too much (in my opinion) to live up to my parents' expectations e.g. when it came to subject choices I had to take the academic ones (e.g. Latin) and drop art and music that with hindsight might have made me happier and my life was strictly controlled. I've been on the Stately Homes thread under another name as this aspect screwed me up somewhat. I'm quite good at pub quizzes, though.

Regarding your own future children, try to give them the opportunities but let them decide which path to follow; don't force them into a straightjacket of your own expectations.

@godmum56

mensa will do you an IQ test for 25 quid or a taster one for free

Well, who knew! I had no idea!

Really interesting thread, op. Thanks for starting it.

This is one of the most interesting MN threads I have ever read. Fascinating insights into so many people's upbringings, and how other people, whose paths wouldn't cross, have found their social and cultural tribes.

My story, the daughter of a (non-graduate) national service pilot and a (non-graduate) SRCN nurse in the 1950s, self taught to read apparently says my mum. Private prep at 4, Cornish primary school, with nit inspections at 6. Passed 11+ (and I do think it or something similar at 14 should come back). Independent free place at school on a county council place for ultra-rural bright kids, to the most selective university in the country at the time, after Oxbridge (I didn't apply as the best colleges weren't open to women then).

I am not actually that clever, although I read a lot and have a good brain. But I arrived at Bristol and my friends' parents ran the country. Then went to NY and discovered Wall St and the financial world. I did not know what the City of London was....... no one had told me that it was an option in life, but I dropped in on my grandparents unannounced one afternoon 30 years later, and grandma admired my business suit, and I said, been to a meeting at Rothschild about XYZ. She had been a secretary/typing pool in the boardroom office for a very large aerospace company, and her face trembled (I hope it was pride not horror) at the thought that her grand daughter could have been invited in her own right and merit. Her grandson, my nephew has also worked there. I think she would have been thrilled at the thought that her grandchildren had become solidly professional. Her grandparents were in service.

Piss poor with abusive alcoholic father. I hid in the library to avoid going home. Also no money for toys but library books were free.

I'm reasonably intelligent I think, more so than my DH and his siblings who were privately educated. They have more of a 'network' and are more confident however.

Wasn't there a story about a lorry driver that spent 100k on private school for his dimwit son who only got 1 gcse?

I think the drive to learn is a big thing. I definitely did not want to end up like my Mum and that pushed me. I alsondisnt marry until late 30s so didn't put educaton behind homelife.

@GammyLeg

I don’t think it’s an education thing. Some of the smartest and most engaging people I know skipped university.

I think it’s down to fostering a sense of curiosity from a young age; having a supportive parent, and lots of reading.

Education isn't just university though is it? What you learn at home from parents can also be education as can reading and various experiences.

I was actually discouraged from reading. i was a voracious reader so I was limited, much in the way kids have screen time limited today.

My mum thought I was “anti-social” with my nose always in a book.

However she also insisted I went to Uni. Even when I didn’t want to as I had no clue what I wanted to do. Should have taken a couple of years off- i have a degree I have never used.

"but there is now research showing that fiction readers show more empathy"

Yes, but does the research show cause? It could just be that more empathetic people choose to read fiction. Have they compared with people who watch dramas on TV - they may be just as empathetic.

You know, you say you have more higher education "success" despite your DP "advantages"

That is a huge thing for you to have achieved!

Tbh, if your DP is giving off an "air" of being somehow more intelligent /clever/whatever, than you, that does sound a bit like DP feels somehow inferior, and is trying, maybe, to put you down?

"And depressingly the ones who do very badly on those quiz shows, and seem to know very little about ANYthing, are teachers."

I don't think that's depressing (even if true, which you haven't really convinced me). Why would teachers need a lot of trivial knowledge?

I think it is partly down to each person. But parental input helps.
My very proud next door neighbour(council estate, quite firmly working class) tried to teach all her children(4) to read before school, the one who picked it up best was her youngest, august baby so one of the youngest in the year and went in reading quite well! Her teacher said she would be going to Oxford and that is exactly where she will soon be going! I don't know anyone else who has gone/ will be going to Oxbridge.
I haven't quizzed her about the ins and outs, so I can't shed any light on them but her other children had the same environment and opportunities but did not have the aptitude.

DH had a middle class upbringing. His graduate parents encouraged reading & his house was always full of intellectual conversations and people. DH gained a vast general knowledge & vocabulary. He always comes across as intellectual.

I had a more working class upbringing but my mum encouraged reading and we were always trying new experiences & visiting galleries and museums. I have a very high IQ but poor general knowledge, so I don’t come across as intellectual at all.

We disagree on who is the cleverest of the two of us. I think it’s DH as he just seems to know everything. DH thinks it’s me. He says I intuitively get things & think outside the box, but I think that’s just part of me being neurodivergent.

Whoever is right…. I think reading, having discussions and new experiences are the key to children questioning and having critical thinking.

PS: loving this thread. It's so interesting

So much reading and always having intelligent conversations with kids. Imaginative play helps too.

I'm excellent at general knowledge because I remember random shit!

I did read a lot as a dc but don't read as much these days. I'm intelligent but not particularly academic however one thing I did learn from one parent is very good social skills. I'm often described as personable or charming & I think that opens many doors.