If you are very clever, how did your parents help make that happen?

[rainbowfairylights]

Background: I have been with my DP for a couple of years now. Whilst we are both intelligent people with careers we are proud of, DP does seem to have a bit of an air of... I don't know, she's definitely more clever in the sense that she knows a lot.

There are huge differences between our childhoods - I was raised in a family of borderline neglect, didn't have any extra-curricular opportunities and went to an inner-city low ranking school. DP went to one of the best schools in the country, had a variation of extra-curricular going on from sport to music, and their family spend a lot of time doing things like general knowledge quizzes, playing board games, etc etc. I left school at 15 with a mix of grades, DP left at 18 with straight A's at the highest level possible.

I suppose I'm trying to figure out how much of a difference the things DP's parents did with her made, vs how I was raised. We are both successful now and I actually have more higher education success, but as I said, DP is definitely still the more intelligent one. If you have a similar type of intelligence to my lovely DP, can you pin it on childhood experiences, is it a luck of the draw, or more of a mix?

I'm better that DH on general knowledge mostly because my parents loved going to museums, art galleries, visiting old churches and castles and as kids we had to go with them, plus we had a lot of books and magazines because they loved reading. They read a lot and so did we. We weren't allowed to watch a lot of tv so it was a choice between either reading or playing.

They didn't do those things just for our education though, it's just something that they loved doing for themselves.

(It's probably clear that I've responded to this thread as an ex-bookseller and someone with an interest in education, rather than as someone very clever. 🙂)

@thecatfromjapan

I went to a lecture about education given by Alice Sullivan. She looked at lots and lots of data and lots of methodologies for interpreting that data.

The long and short of it was:

Don't apologise for reading fiction. Don't apologise for reading genre fiction. Just read. And keep reading. All through your life.

Just saying that because so many on here are feeling slightly abashed about their reading choices.

As for your question: I think you're really asking about cultural capital (as others have pointed out. Google 'Bourdieu' - or read him; he's very readable.

As we all know, 'intelligence' isn't a simple term, nor does it equate with worldly success. After all, girls outperform boys in exams, yet earn less as women.

So, have fun with your child. It's so brilliant to share the world with someone for whom it's all pretty new. It's fabulous to experience the love and closeness of caring in such a joyful way.

Thank you, this is lovely. I'll have a read up on Bourdieu!

I think it's about encouraging curiosity and sharing what you know plus lots of books. When I was a child, my parents were great ones for "if you dont know look it up" so getting me out the atlas or encyclopedia etc and researching together. Internet obviously makes it easier. Or once we were talking about Stonehenge and dad dropped all his plans and off we went on a day trip to Stonehenge and Avebury to find out more.

With my kids, we have chats about anything and everything. I also do try and let them try lots of sports and activities to see what they enjoy.

But it all has to be fun. I think you need to enjoy learning or you wont do it.

Not sure how anyone defines 'very clever'. I went to Oxbridge despite going to a state school that refused to help me apply, so I have tenacity. I also had fairly neglectful parents in many ways but they did two things that massively helped form me. One - the house was full of books. The only people we knew who had more books than us was a pair of university lecturers.

The other - my dad was a very judgemental critical person - not always easy to live with but that meant that we were taught critical thinking by default. He'd critique the news, the government, adverts on TV, the opinions of neighbours and friends. He taught me not to follow passively but always to question.

Also, my parents loved music and art - just loved it, so there was always something playing in the house - anything from Northern Soul to Ella Fitzgerald to Beethoven sonatas. And if there was an exhibition on in town, we went.

As parents we are quite like your partners' parents - we do quizzes, board games, go to lots of shows, exhibitions, concerts with DC and always have done. Sent them to the school that suited them best. Both DC have done very well academically, despite one having both physical and mental disabilities, so I do think nurture plays a huge part.

There probably is such a thing as native intelligence, but I think a lot of children benefit from being in an environment where they are taught to think creatively, think for themselves, problem solve alone and to be inquisitive and enthusiastic. My top tip would be - never send them to a school where it's uncool to be clever.

Angelica I'm going to probs go against the grain a little bit here but I don't think smaller class sizes at a private is school is what does it.

I completely agree with you re experiences, books etc.

But there is still something I think about private schools and small classes. Not the teaching quality as such, but having the time to listen, to get children to expand on their thinking, to encourage the shier ones. This helps the children feel more confident within themselves - that they and their opinions matter - that they then take with them through life.

As a teen on a Sunday I read a Sunday paper from cover to cover every week. Don’t know why, just found the news really interesting. I also had an amazing memory. As a result I know loads of random things. I also had parents who were heavily involved in classical music and would rarely play anything else so I knew a lot about that whereas none of my friends did. My mum grew up without a tv in the 50’s and she said she spent her time reading nature books and then passed that knowledge to us. My dad was also massively into sport. I think I picked up a lot of knowledge about a lot of things by osmosis!

As an adult-friends from different backgrounds, lots of different interests, try to do as many different experiences as possible etc.

Just to add to all the things that others have said about talking to, reading with, etc, your kids, I'd say do things with them. Even if they don't seem to appreciate them hugely at the time. My dad was massively interested in industrial archaeology, and we lived in the Midlands, so spent a lot of time being taken to see things like Ironbridge and the Derbyshire Mills etc. My mum loves theatre so she took us to plays. They are/were both musical so we went to concerts. It's obviously easier if you're already interested in stuff, but if not, well maybe you will be!

Disclaimer: on the nature vs nurture front, both my parents are highly intelligent - top in the country results for both of them.

• books by the thousands in the house
• weekly trips to the library for more
• NT/English Heritage membership
• very educational clubs - first aid (which included learning more code and semaphore), archaeology, etc
• creative toys like lego and meccano
• lots of educational TV - David Attenborough, Tomorrow's World etc
• Also period dramas frequently, and audio books in the car
• Always watching the news, plus commentary programmes
• Lots and LOTS of independent outdoor play

Basically up to 6pm when my Dad got home, we were allowed free reign with the TV, but after that, they had adult TV choices, and the choice was watching it, or taking yourself to do something else (usually read a book).

Another disclaimer - I was the youngest of four, so perhaps was expected to blend into an adult world more. And I also lack cultural capital of kiddy things or mass culture (I've never seen an episode of Eastenders, a fact that blows MILs mind).

I've been involved in a lot of research into child development, and my first and last bullets are pretty much the answer. Exploratory, independent play is worth a thousand stimulating toys, plus reading, reading, reading.

I think it's disingenuous to deny that family background and parental involvement have a big impact on success (or that most of us want our children to be successful). But, as people have already identified, there is a big difference between intelligence/confidence/cultural capital. According to studies, intelligence is highly (but not totally) heritable but it has environmental aspects as well. So you can't create an 'intelligent' child but you can encourage your child to make the most of their abilities.

Arguably, confidence and cultural capital are more important for success than raw intelligence. I know quite a few very intelligent people who have done less well (at least materially) in life then more academically average people who have more confidence and are more savvy and socially aware.

This is going to be controversial but one of the best things I think parents can do for their children is to give birth to them between Sept-Dec so they're amongst the oldest in their school year. Older children often have an embedded advantage in terms of school readiness, confidence, physical development and social skills that I think continues throughout their school careers. I haven't followed my advice with my own DC though .

My parents were very clever. The whole family was well educated before I came along. I was encouraged in everything I tried. I learned to read very young and never looked back.

Nature does have a part to play but without nurture ...

DH from similar family.

Both DSs the same one a PhD the other soon will be.

I don't have well-rounded knowledge, but I'm also a self starter. It's actually quite a nice feeling knowing that you are where you are because you made it happen against the odds!

OP please do not underestimate the value of this. Your children will learn by your example and it's one of the greatest things you can teach them. I wish I'd had more emphasis on self-esteem and resilience and less on getting perfect marks...

We watched a lot of tv, quiz shows etc. My dad loved doing quizzes and I’d help him every day with the ones in the newspapers. I read lots. Magazines, newspapers as well as fiction and non fiction. My dad is really interested in the natural world and would take us for walks and show us plants and animals etc. They were teens in the 60s and loved the whole music scene and passed that on. Things like more formal art and culture I picked up in adulthood. I don’t think they set out to do anything special. They just talked to us about what they were interested in, the same way I do with my children.

@SlothinSpirit I’ve had a lot of discussions with my SIL about the birth between sept-december point. My personal view is that it makes very little difference for a bright child but probably does if a child is not so bright. I do remember seeing a study years ago suggesting that there were more professional footballers born in those months than not.

Fostering curiosity is key. I grew up in poverty and went to my local comprehensive but my family was and is obsessed with learning new things. Lots of political discussions at home for as long as I can remember and knowledge and facts were prized. Lots of board games, always told to look new words up in the dictionary. As I got older and discovered TV and music that continued and so much of my general and wider knowledge has come from high and low brow TV and pop culture. RIP Smash Hits If you are curious and interested you can learn from any source. I have a couple of degrees and I'm in a senior professional role. My general knowledge and curiosity has helped at every stage.

I have a child with SEND which makes many activities tricky but since he was little I've given him tasters of as many things as possible. Restaurants, art galleries, sports events, ballet even free open days at the opera. Some have been unexpected hits and some have been a complete disaster! I didn't always have those opportunities as a child and had to learn to be comfortable in many of those spaces. The main things is for him to feel that these things are open to him.

I don’t think you mean intelligence either.

What private school gives you is that confidence, that air of being at least equal with everyone else. So mixing socially with successful people - the likes of academics, lawyers, doctors, politicians, whatever, you have that innate knowledge that you are just as good as they are.

I went to a private primary school and was easily an all A student. There is just the expectation that everyone can achieve that. Then going to a comprehensive for secondary the talk is much more negative- careers talk for example was vet/lawyer/dr? Well it’s very competitive and you’ll need all A’s, not many people get in you know. So I just didn't bother trying and nobody cared i got c’s.

I ended up with a Phd so I know I’m on the higher end of the intelligence scale, but generally I think I’m pretty average. If I had stayed at private school I think I would have had more confidence to stand up and say hey, you know what, i can get a’s and be a vet, and behave as if I did deserve the good grades at uni rather than being all self deprecating about it.

You can be very knowledgeable and have cultural capital without necessarily being particularly intelligent, as long as you have a reasonably good memory and certain input in your upbringing. And of course you can be very intelligent without being knowledgeable or having cultural capital.

I went to a grammar school, then Oxford. My parents didn't go to university but were keen readers, very wordy and articulate, had good general knowledge and were ambitious for me and dsis. My dc are knowledgeable and intelligent teens with plenty of cultural capital. Dd is less interested in academic stuff than the rest of us, but still comes across as very clever, which she is.

Both DH and I are very clever. My parents did fuck all to support me, didn't even get me to do homework, so I didn't. As a result I got ok grades through school, despite never doing any work. I dropped out of university as I was completely out of my depth in terms of attitude to studying.

DH's parents were graduates themselves and pushed him academically, made sure he did his work and supported him through university. He's now a professorin his field.

With his help I've tried to support and push my DD. She's now a fully qualified professional and I'm so proud of her. She's super clever but like me is also autistic. Cleverness alone isn't a route to success on its own, you have to have a solid support system

Another thing is to say Yes, let them take risks and let them explore. It helps makes them curious. A toddler can learn a lit from a mud kitchen for example. A primary age child can learn a lot from making a den in the woods.

I'm fairly intelligent, somewhat 'cultured' (hate that word but I mean I like reading high-/middlebrow books, theatre etc), think quite well and am intellectually fairly curious. Background is one parent who is quite like me and the other not at all (happy to have left school at 15, no real intellectual curiosity etc).
The parent more like me stood up for me to an extent and allowed uni, but I wasn't exactly brought up learning Latin at their knee and having stimulating conversations over dinner as the other parent actively discouraged/scoffed at my more 'academic' leanings, didn't want me to go to uni etc. I went to a sink secondary comprehensive where, again, anyone who was 'clever' was a target for bullies.

Many of my family are like the less 'intellectual' parent; I'm a bit of an anomaly. I think it could very easily have gone the other way. Why did it go the way it did and why am I more curious and a bit more of a thinker? I really don't know. I'd have to say luck of the draw.

I don’t think this has to be connected to private schooling. Books in the house definitely. Some kind of innate curiosity and wanting to know about stuff/how it works. Talking to the child constantly and about all sorts of things. Introducing them to new stuff - ballet, music, theatre, science etc. from early on; museums and nature trips (doesn’t have to be expensive; there are always lots of things that are free happening all around the place if you keep a look out).

I was very much as you describe your DP, but instead I went to rather bog standard state schools (followed by Oxbridge, PhD and so on). My parents are very much sixties grammar school boomers, both university educated (first generation), and moved up from being working class to very middle middle class. Lots of Radio 4, not much technology, random old books from secondhand book stores - but my mum especially has always been very into the cultural side of things: theatre/ballet/opera/Shakespeare/museums and so on. I acquired a ton of bits of random general and cultural knowledge just from that and from my own reading.

However my parents were also both pretty unpushy and benignly neglectful as well - I was left alone to be bored and to read a lot of the time. Got taken to the library a lot and left to choose my own books, so I worked my way through whatever I wanted. I was the kind of kid who had to read the cereal packets at breakfast because I always had to be reading something. To be fair, I didn’t feel like I fitted in at school, until I got to university where I was much happier. I also wished my parents had pushed me a bit more - to have music lessons and so on. They were sometimes not quite pushy enough…

So I think there’s some kind of connection between providing just enough available that a child who has a natural curiosity can make use of it - but it doesn’t have to be hothousing or private school. Giving them a range of experiences early on to engage their interest in nature, science, theatre, dance, reading and so on is very important though, I think.

And not too much tech. There’s a role for a little bit of boredom in stimulating a child to read. My DD is naturally bright and curious, but will still settle into gazing at screens if given the opportunity. Take the TV and iPad away for a bit (as we’ve had to do recently), and after a few days of whinging about being BORRRREDDDD she will start picking up books and reading them and writing stories and so on.

I wouldn't underestimate being a self-starter either as Palavah says, getting started on things can be the hardest bit so someone willing to get stuck in is fabulous!

Also, as WeepingWillows mentions, it's the curiosity factor - yes you can take them to places/extra-curricular activites but it's getting them to do their own research about anything that interests them. Some people do this naturally but it can be encouraged. Definitely easier in the age of t'internet, I'd have had to look something up in a book as a kid whereas DD from quite a young age will say 'I'll Google that later ....' I will give her primary school the credit for telling the pupils to be careful of Wikipedia, as they get older you can warn them that YouTube is not infalliable either!

Our expectation of DD is that she tries her very best at anything she does - she doesn't have to be top of the class or win, just give it her all.

My parents were always very supportive of us doing homework, so a time was set aside for that (same for exam revision as well) and the TV was off, we had a space to do it and help if we needed it. DH's parents were a little more relaxed about that kind of thing, but he's happy to follow my lead on this one.

A lot does depend on the child's personality though and parents don't have as much influence on that as they'd like! You can create the conditions/atmosphere but after that it can be pure luck!

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear has some truth, so gene pool is probably the most important factor.

That is boosted by good early parenting and attitudes to learning.

Engagement in the news and current affairs from a young age. My parents listened to me stand on a chair and announce my plans to ‘solve’ domestic and international issues, then asking questions posing as various journalists and MPs. Writing letters to politicians and creating presentations for pet/toy requests. Loved the Working Lunch and mum would pick me up early so I could get home in time to watch it.

20 questions general knowledge quiz every night written by my dad.

Thousands of books in our house, including shelves of my own in my bedroom - I read at least one book every day from about 4 up.

Every question I ever had got answered (and I had a lot of them) - even if it meant letters to universities or a trip to meet a chemist once at the Science Museum.

Toys for me were more creative and role play based, or exploratory. Kids learning laptop, a microchip board from a business throwing it out, doctor set with book detailing illnesses and treatments, a whiteboard for my teddy bear school.

Every time we went out, my dad played the game of “if I ordered x, y and .; how much would that be?” “If I put with a £20, what change do I need and what denominations could that be?”

Holidays and days out weren’t ever spent at the beach or pool. We would go into the city with a phrase book and explore the history and culture.

Always facing the world as a baby. High chair facing the garden to observe the squirrels, pushchair facing outward. Allowed to engage with the world too, I always had a side business going on. Sitting in our front garden selling water to runners, selling seeds I found to gardeners, eventually led to website based ventures when I worked out how to ‘borrow’ other people’s internet.

Strategic conversations: “if this, then what?” Like on coin machines, long discussions on timing and the optimum coin spread. I was a very exciting 4 year old as you can imagine

The thing is, I loved these things. If I hadn’t, it would have backfired - and that’s probably nature. Being an only child helped, given how time intensive this all was on my parents.

@Retrievemysanity. I think you're right from the perspective of academic achievement. Speaking from a sample size of 3 (my siblings and I), August child is the most academically intelligent (Oxbridge, doctorate) while October child and May child were reasonably bright but never top of the class.

However, I secretly think it makes a big difference to physical ability and confidence. August child was very shy and a bit of a klutz (their words!) growing up, rubbish at sport and never on any teams. Still doesn't like to put themselves forward and has some confidence issues. October child was very confident, lots of friends, very sporty. May child somewhere in the middle and happy in themselves. October child is definitely the one you would point to as being most 'successful' in life, although all three are reasonably happy.

I'm aware this is a very unscientific study!