If you are very clever, how did your parents help make that happen?

[rainbowfairylights]

Background: I have been with my DP for a couple of years now. Whilst we are both intelligent people with careers we are proud of, DP does seem to have a bit of an air of... I don't know, she's definitely more clever in the sense that she knows a lot.

There are huge differences between our childhoods - I was raised in a family of borderline neglect, didn't have any extra-curricular opportunities and went to an inner-city low ranking school. DP went to one of the best schools in the country, had a variation of extra-curricular going on from sport to music, and their family spend a lot of time doing things like general knowledge quizzes, playing board games, etc etc. I left school at 15 with a mix of grades, DP left at 18 with straight A's at the highest level possible.

I suppose I'm trying to figure out how much of a difference the things DP's parents did with her made, vs how I was raised. We are both successful now and I actually have more higher education success, but as I said, DP is definitely still the more intelligent one. If you have a similar type of intelligence to my lovely DP, can you pin it on childhood experiences, is it a luck of the draw, or more of a mix?

I remember going to Paris, and realising that the French celebrated Napoleon as a ‘good guy’ This was at odds with what my history lessons had taught me, and this led me to not take everything at face value… There's more than one way to interpret things, and it’s always worth doing your own research to develop opinions. I think being able to see that everyone has a valid view, based on their own experience , which may well differ from yours, helps with critical thinking. Essentially, what I mean, is encourage your children to use more than one resource, and to realise that the same information, with a different spin on it, can massively influence your understanding. This type of thinking can be helpful when engaging in lively discussion, and can at least give the illusion of intelligence and confidence!

@Gingerodgers

I remember going to Paris, and realising that the French celebrated Napoleon as a ‘good guy’ This was at odds with what my history lessons had taught me, and this led me to not take everything at face value… There's more than one way to interpret things, and it’s always worth doing your own research to develop opinions. I think being able to see that everyone has a valid view, based on their own experience , which may well differ from yours, helps with critical thinking. Essentially, what I mean, is encourage your children to use more than one resource, and to realise that the same information, with a different spin on it, can massively influence your understanding. This type of thinking can be helpful when engaging in lively discussion, and can at least give the illusion of intelligence and confidence!

I think this is what is missing today for a lot of people- shades of grey. Everything, especially on social media is so black and white, right and wrong. Cancel culture because opinions/actions years ago cancel everything else out. Criticising actions of people 100 years ago based on todays values and morals. Differing opinions screamed over. It's how we end up with such divided politics- neither side will entertain listening and trying to find common ground but will just scream over the other. Life is easier if you try to understand where others are coming from. You don't have to agree, but you should make an effort to understand. (When I say "You" I mean the general You, not anyone in particular)

@Gwenhwyfar

"but there is now research showing that fiction readers show more empathy"

Yes, but does the research show cause? It could just be that more empathetic people choose to read fiction. Have they compared with people who watch dramas on TV - they may be just as empathetic.

I don't think they have compared TV dramas and novels. It's about how reading fiction helps you understand that different people see the same thing differently or giving you insights into lives that are very different from your own. In theory, if the dramas are different to your own life, perhaps it would work as well.

Of course they can't really establish cause in the sense of starting out with two groups of children similar in every way except for reading fiction but they have tried it with prisoners who often have very poor empathy - hence not worrying about stealing because they don't see the consequences of stealing something of low financial but high sentimental value and who are not fiction readers. The prisoners end up being more empathic although noone has ever had funding to follow them up when they leave prison to see if it affects recidivism.

Seeing the slightly apologetic posts from people who read fiction, I just wanted to make the point (as others have done) that there are advantages to reading fiction, even if it's unlikely to help you answer questions about FA Cup winners in a pub quiz.

@FlyingBattie completely agree with

I'm not sure there's any explanation. Both my parents were only semi-literate in my childhood, having been taken out of school very young certainly not enough to read for pleasure or to help with homework. There were no books in the house at all, and I had to join the library myself aged around seven, having actually gone in and found out my parents were wrong and it didn't 'cost money' which was their attitude to anything that was outside their ken. They would no more have thought of going into a museum than they would of flying. I don't blame them, it was how they were brought up, and they are timid people who were uneasy and rather embarrassed with me 'being good at school'.

Neither was school encouraging. To this day, I don't know what made me bookish and stubborn enough to get to university and do the four degrees that led to a professional career, let alone discover I loved opera, the visual arts, travelling. It's of course possible that my ancestors were full of untapped intellectual/creative potential, but as far as I'm aware none of them had more than the legal minimum schooling, and the marriage/baptism certs I've seen from the late 19thc suggest few of them were literate.

So if I discount both nature and nurture, I'm not sure what I'm left with!

@Gwenhwyfar

"And depressingly the ones who do very badly on those quiz shows, and seem to know very little about ANYthing, are teachers."

I don't think that's depressing (even if true, which you haven't really convinced me). Why would teachers need a lot of trivial knowledge?

When I was a penniless student, now-DH and I and a couple of friends used to do the round of the local pub quizzes that had cheap entry fees and paid either cash or free drinks, and the regular crack teams we were always in a friendly rivalry with were almost invariably all or dominated by teachers.

I have very fond memories when we and the teachers were all humiliated by a very badly-photocopied photo round which featured a succession of blurry black and white photos of Victorians who all looked like Florence Nightingale or Gladstone, got hysterical and shared the prize.

@rainbowfairylights

Background: I have been with my DP for a couple of years now. Whilst we are both intelligent people with careers we are proud of, DP does seem to have a bit of an air of... I don't know, she's definitely more clever in the sense that she knows a lot.

There are huge differences between our childhoods - I was raised in a family of borderline neglect, didn't have any extra-curricular opportunities and went to an inner-city low ranking school. DP went to one of the best schools in the country, had a variation of extra-curricular going on from sport to music, and their family spend a lot of time doing things like general knowledge quizzes, playing board games, etc etc. I left school at 15 with a mix of grades, DP left at 18 with straight A's at the highest level possible.

I suppose I'm trying to figure out how much of a difference the things DP's parents did with her made, vs how I was raised. We are both successful now and I actually have more higher education success, but as I said, DP is definitely still the more intelligent one. If you have a similar type of intelligence to my lovely DP, can you pin it on childhood experiences, is it a luck of the draw, or more of a mix?

Impossible to know...one of my best friends had a horrible childhood as her husband did and they both have genius level IQs, also more than one learning difference between them, negative parental influences, but the loveliest positive most hard working people you'll ever meet and also amazing parents (& very good looking too, lol, their last family photo casually taken looked like a catalogue fashion ad ).

@PleasurePrinciple

I'm not sure there's any explanation. Both my parents were only semi-literate in my childhood, having been taken out of school very young certainly not enough to read for pleasure or to help with homework. There were no books in the house at all, and I had to join the library myself aged around seven, having actually gone in and found out my parents were wrong and it didn't 'cost money' which was their attitude to anything that was outside their ken. They would no more have thought of going into a museum than they would of flying. I don't blame them, it was how they were brought up, and they are timid people who were uneasy and rather embarrassed with me 'being good at school'.

Neither was school encouraging. To this day, I don't know what made me bookish and stubborn enough to get to university and do the four degrees that led to a professional career, let alone discover I loved opera, the visual arts, travelling. It's of course possible that my ancestors were full of untapped intellectual/creative potential, but as far as I'm aware none of them had more than the legal minimum schooling, and the marriage/baptism certs I've seen from the late 19thc suggest few of them were literate.

So if I discount both nature and nurture, I'm not sure what I'm left with!

All humans have unlimited potential, it's up to us what we tap into.

Reading. My childhood home was full of books and my parents both read to me and for themselves so it was totally normal for me to devour every word I saw. It cannot be overstated how important it is that a early reading habit is formed.

Don’t be silly, @Polkadots2021. It certainly wasn’t ‘up to’ my illiterate farm labourer ancestors to tap into their potential prowess in engineering or composing.

@Gwenhwyfar

"but there is now research showing that fiction readers show more empathy"

Yes, but does the research show cause? It could just be that more empathetic people choose to read fiction. Have they compared with people who watch dramas on TV - they may be just as empathetic.

I saw this on TV - they were showing pictures of eyes and best at guessing actual emotions were one who read a lot of fiction.

This link looks as some of the research and is cautious about applying it to the real world.
www.bbc.com/future/article/20190523-does-reading-fiction-make-us-better-people

when I looked for sources I also found this:
www.scientificamerican.com/article/novel-finding-reading-literary-fiction-improves-empathy/

Here it seesm it's reading Literary Fiction that improves empathy rather than just any fiction - I have to say though I'm generally been disapappointed in most literary fiction books I've read - most of the ideas I've usually encountered in sci-fi or more other genres which are more entertaining reading..

@LadyMonicaBaddingham

Reading. My childhood home was full of books and my parents both read to me and for themselves so it was totally normal for me to devour every word I saw. It cannot be overstated how important it is that a early reading habit is formed.

Yes, same here. Books everywhere. All kinds - fiction, reference, special interest, atlases, travel, recipes, photography…. All DC have bookshelves in their rooms. When they were really small, I put their books on the bottom shelves so the could reach them whenever they wanted. Once they got past the stage of pulling them off and lobbing them everywhere, grabbing books and giving them even a cursory glance became part of whatever they got up to on the floor. Books weren’t just for bedtime stories.

My parents were talkers, always interested in current and not so current affairs. They knew and had an opinion on things and sought out new information all the time. My mums favourite hobby was watching the news but she also seemed to know the rules of every sport played (despite not playing any of them). Not academic but both valued education hugely. Although I was privately educated (they weren't) I think it was the at home sitting round the table debating all sorts that was the biggest influence on me. My father who left school at 14 with no qualifications had a thirst for knowledge and would only ever watch documentaries on tv and could generally be found reading an encyclopaedia. He was a general builder and one of the most intelligent people I've ever met, naturally sharp. My husband had a much more middle class upbringing with university educated parents but neither of them seem to know anything about anything outside of their immediate lives and interests and I find dinner with them so dull. Hummus and olives do not make you cultured! My husband, whilst he has loads of great qualities is unfortunately like his parents in this respect and as the drudgery of child rearing is lifting I often yearn for someone to properly talk to. Luckily my daughter is more like me!!

My family also valued travel (slightly off the beaten track rather than a package special) and I think that was a big influence too. Wider experiences and influences make you more interesting. It's so expensive to travel now though.

By the way I think people have an idea that private schools have insanely small class sizes. My kids are in private secondary and the form size is 24 against 28 in my local state school.

There are some primary schools where the class size can go as low as 12 but they tend to be the ones struggling for numbers and I would never choose that as they are not great socially as there is not a good mix of kids.

We went state primary (30 in a class). There is no discernible difference between the prep kids and the state kids. In fact all of the scholarship kids are ex state.

@beenbotheringme

By the way I think people have an idea that private schools have insanely small class sizes. My kids are in private secondary and the form size is 24 against 28 in my local state school.

There are some primary schools where the class size can go as low as 12 but they tend to be the ones struggling for numbers and I would never choose that as they are not great socially as there is not a good mix of kids.

We went state primary (30 in a class). There is no discernible difference between the prep kids and the state kids. In fact all of the scholarship kids are ex state.

In my state school we were only about three who took French to A level and I think my friend said the Physics class only had 5. This was because it wasn't a big school and in those days the average was only 3 subjects in the sixth form so we ended up with very small classes.

@beenbotheringme

By the way I think people have an idea that private schools have insanely small class sizes. My kids are in private secondary and the form size is 24 against 28 in my local state school.

There are some primary schools where the class size can go as low as 12 but they tend to be the ones struggling for numbers and I would never choose that as they are not great socially as there is not a good mix of kids.

We went state primary (30 in a class). There is no discernible difference between the prep kids and the state kids. In fact all of the scholarship kids are ex state.

I think people also have the false idea that private schools employ the best teachers. My experience is the opposite. Kids who go to private/grammar schools are usually more motivated to learn, so they will still do "OK" if they get a few crap teachers, i.e. they're more likely to pick up the slack themselves and teach themselves. Such schools are often more of an environment where pupils can learn, rather than an environment where they're taught - that's a very important difference that some people don't appreciate.