Miss Mrs Ms

[DinosaurDiana]

I know we’ve had this discussion before, and I said that I wish we had one title for women like men. I was told we do - Ms, but I’m not that fond of it. To me it says left on the shelf female, but I’ll no doubt be told that that is my own prejudice !! It’s actually from having older, unmarried teachers at school.
However, I am going to use it on unofficial things like my Tesco and Next account to change my own attitude.

Mrs John Hellebores = correct form of address for a married woman
Mrs Roses Hellebores = correct form of address for a divorced woman

According to whom?
What utter crap. It wasn't a law, it was a convention; and given that few, if any, women these days would like to be called "Mrs David Smith" then it's a convention that's faded out and is, in no way, "correct".

I'm a married Ms, my name is my name and has remained unchanged as has my husbands.

[quote RosesAndHellebores]@NavigatingAdolescence whether you like it or not, it remains the correct etiquette and I don't think ignoring people is polite. Particularly when their actions are rooted in the past and they don't mean to cause offence.

Having said that I quite understand that the wishes of my 20 somethings are different to my mother's but that doesn't make my mother rude. Mother's 85, I'm 61, dd is 22. Etiquette evolves and in this instance it has some catching up to do.

I took my husband's name (my unmarried name was ghastly, his is lovely). There is neither the same pressure to do so nowadays nor the same pressure to be married but he is unequivocally my husband rather than my partner and equally I have gay friends who refer to their husbands and wives rather than their partners.

If ds and his girlfriend marry I have no doubt she will keep her name and I would never refer to her as Mrs his name surname because it is dated and I respect their more modern social norms but if my mother did and was ignored I'd find that very rude indeed. Respect works two ways and one must be sensitive to the practices of others.

The most profound part of my marriage was the blessing of the rings before God and that is something I cannot begin to explain but the experience was profound and visceral and bound us together.[/quote]
My 80+ year old well-to-do grandmother never once called me by anything other than my name. My great aunt (late 70s) did it once, and only when she asked me if there was a reason I hadn’t cashed her cheque and I had to explain that as I had not changed my name there as no bank account in the name she had made it out to. She reissued it and apologised for assuming.

There were both women who had worked full time whilst raising kids and were in absolutely no way beholden to the men they married.

If someone shouted “Mrs Hisfirstname Hissurname” out at at event or in the street I wouldn’t answer because not one part of that relates to my name, so to me it’s the same in any situation. Likewise if something is addressed to Mr and Mrs Hisname it goes to DH as the only one actually referenced on the thing.

You can scream “etiquette” all you like. That is not how the world works now. I’ve had the same name my entire life and nobody has the right to call me by anything else, whoever they are.

@DerisorySnort Debretts actually. However, and as I have reiterated, modern norms are more and more important. Ultimately it's about good manners which have at their heart ensuring another person is at ease.

I very much doubt anyone would shout Mrs John Hellebores in the street. They would call "Roses" or "Mrs Hellebores". However if dh and I attend a professional function where we are announced before dinner it is usual for us to be announced as Mr and Mrs John Hellebores thereafter we are called John and Roses or similarly if someone is a Knight the couple would be announced as Sir John and Lady Knight. Jane Knight would be incorrect. If the woman were a Dame she would take precedence in the order of

I think I’ll stick to fish and chips at the beach and people that don’t refer to me in such a way as to imply I am part of my husband.

if dh and I attend a professional function where we are announced before dinner it is usual for us to be announced as Mr and Mrs John Hellebores

If anyone, anywhere did this to me I would kick up a fuss and make them correct it.

Etiquette be damned

I am no one's property

And if you were my age and your dh did a similar job to mine SummerLeaves that would have been your husband's career was well and truly derailed.

@RosesAndHellebores

And if you were my age and your dh did a similar job to mine SummerLeaves that would have been your husband's career was well and truly derailed.

Says a lot more about your age and your husband’s chosen career than it does about me and Summerleaves.

Indeed it does and as I have said many times the world is changing and I respect that. It's a great pity that you seem unable to respect the feelings of others in the belief that only your feelings matter. That really isn't what good manners are about.

Reminded of that Ricky Gervais line about “if my auntie had bollocks she’d be my uncle” now.

Honestly. If I’d been born 200 years earlier my life would have been completely different. That has nothing to do with the actual society I live in now.

I can sort of tend to agree with @RosesAndHellebores. The speed at which the world and language are changing can be extremely difficult to keep up with, particularly for older people.
A friend of my mum, for example, was devasted that after her husband's death, she was no longer Mrs His Name. She felt that it erased the fact that they'd been married for over 50 years.

I’m nearly 50, was born and grew up in Scandinavia and I’ve always “known” Ms is a neutral form for women. Tell me that is right?

I’m married and use Mrs but this thread has made me want to rebel a little and may start to use Ms when possible.. I also hardly never wear my wedding rings and neither does my DH.

@Skybluepinkgiraffe but technically she is still Mrs His name surname if that's what she prefers.

It's also pretty tough for older people to be considered rude when they are in fact using language that they were taught was polite when they were growing up.
I think there's a lot to be said for looking for the intent behind people's words, rather than seeking to force recent changes on them.
Not everyone has the time to be swotting up on what language is currently considered appropriate, especially as it changes so fast.

Yes I know @roses, but nevertheless it happened. I was trying to agree with you.

Poor choice of words i admit, but nevertheless the woman concerned was upset when a letter arrived with Mrs Her Name on it

@Skybluepinkgiraffe

It's also pretty tough for older people to be considered rude when they are in fact using language that they were taught was polite when they were growing up. I think there's a lot to be said for looking for the intent behind people's words, rather than seeking to force recent changes on them. Not everyone has the time to be swotting up on what language is currently considered appropriate, especially as it changes so fast.

Thankfully I know very few elderly people that aren’t related to me, and they certainly aren’t formal relationships, so it’s unlikely to come up. The majority of people I encounter are completely unaware of my husband’s name, so have little choice about it.

Yes, @NavigatingAdolescence that's reasonable. I think if someone has been asked to use a particular name too, it's rude not to (beyond genuine forgetfulness)
As always, it's give and take.

Debretts actually

Not the tedious Debretts argument. Debretts is a guide to etiquette: they don't decide it.
Etiquette is dictated by a book but by people, by the attitudes of the day, and the correct form of address (for a married woman or, indeed, anyone else) these days is however someone chooses to be addressed.
And I'm pretty sure Debretts states this too.

*NOT dictated by a book!

@RosesAndHellebores

And if you were my age and your dh did a similar job to mine SummerLeaves that would have been your husband's career was well and truly derailed.

Tough titties

@RosesAndHellebores

Indeed it does and as I have said many times the world is changing and I respect that. It's a great pity that you seem unable to respect the feelings of others in the belief that only your feelings matter. That really isn't what good manners are about.

I'm not telling anyone else what to do though.

If you want to be branded property of Mr John Hellebores that's up to you.

If I want to be seen as an individual in my own right that's up to me.

@RosesAndHellebores I don't think referencing Debretts is helping your cause. I would be amazed if any of my friends or colleagues had ever looked it.

Are you seriously saying that if you were at a formal work function and asked to be introduced as Ms Roses Hellebore rather than Mrs John Hellebore, your dh would lose his job? Surely good manners dictates that someone should be called by their preferred name and title.

I would be amazed if anyone at my DH's office knows what my last name is, and I'm.certain no one where I work knows what DH's last name is.

When I was pregnant and on husband's work insurance they kept billing him as Mr Leaves even though we kept correcting them that he was actually Dr Flowers.

Was funny at first but soon got tedious.