Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

[neroforte]

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

Should I tell her the ups and downs she's been through this afternoon or should I keep it to myself.

Ooooh tough one…tell her and let us know how it goes 😀

@JediGnot however I wouldn't reduce being trans down to just 'wearing dresses'.

[quote SunflowerOwl]@RedToothBrush

I wouldn't consider someone without gender dysphoria that had no desire to transition a 'transwoman' though so no I wouldn't consider their female partner a lesbian.

Trans is short for transition, no? Surely its meaningless without that.[/quote]
Stonewall do though.

Which is important to understand giving they are advising so many workplaces, schools and civil service departments and organisations.

That opinion is regarded as transphobic and must be eliminated according to Stonewall and anyone who has it is worse than a Nazi according to its head. Despite the obvious safeguarding issues to women that arise out of it.

Elephant meet room.

[quote LadyOfLittleLeisure]**@JediGnot* however* I wouldn't reduce being trans down to just 'wearing dresses'.[/quote]
Stonewall do.

I specified looks and surgery as that has been my experience. All of the trans/cis relationships I know where they identify as lesbians (I work predominantly with the lgbt) have involved that.

It’s incredibly arrogant to assume I haven’t kept up with the debate just because I disagree with you.

Lesbians did not exist in law until the late 1990s

I had no idea. I am beginning to see now that labels must matter a lot. I have so many questions but am terrified of asking and using the wrong terminology.

@justanotherneighinparadise

No penis involved. I thought that was the definition.

Not if you are Stonewall.

[quote SunflowerOwl]@RedToothBrush

I wouldn't consider someone without gender dysphoria that had no desire to transition a 'transwoman' though so no I wouldn't consider their female partner a lesbian.

Trans is short for transition, no? Surely its meaningless without that.[/quote]
What do you mean by transition, though? Change of name/pronouns, or appearance, or body?
At what point do you think someone has transitioned from male to female (or vice versa)?
Trans rights activists are arguing that gender dysphoria should not be a necessary requirement to be defined as transgender.

@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers

A genuine question - do lesbians have protection in law? I'm ignorant on this. (I mean aside from sexual orientation as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act, which doesn't single out lesbians).

Yes, lesbians are protected in law;

''A man who is attracted only to other men is a gay man. A woman who is attracted only to other women is a lesbian.'''
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/9

@Peoniesandpeaches

I specified looks and surgery as that has been my experience. All of the trans/cis relationships I know where they identify as lesbians (I work predominantly with the lgbt) have involved that.

It’s incredibly arrogant to assume I haven’t kept up with the debate just because I disagree with you.

So, a person can appear as male as they were born and still have a female gender identity. If they identify as female would you think their appearance or lack of any medical intervention was an issue to being a lesbian?

I'll ignore the personal attack. I didn't know whether or not you disagreed with you, so hadn't made any assumption about you.

[quote Thelnebriati]@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers

A genuine question - do lesbians have protection in law? I'm ignorant on this. (I mean aside from sexual orientation as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act, which doesn't single out lesbians).

Yes, lesbians are protected in law;

''A man who is attracted only to other men is a gay man. A woman who is attracted only to other women is a lesbian.'''
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/9[/quote]
Thanks @Thelnebriati

@RedToothBrush so all those blokes who put their mate in a dress on his stag do are making him a transwoman according to stonewall? So he can go in the ladies loos?

@Totallyrandomname

Generally I consider lesbians to be females attracted to other females (female bodies/biology not female as a gender identity).

However if a woman and a trans woman were in a relationship and considered it a lesbian relationship I wouldn’t argue with how they personally described their relationship. I don’t suppose there is a specific alternative term is there?

Yes, heterosexual. Trying to persuade a lesbian that she should have sex with a transwoman is coercive behaviour and homophobic. Gaslighting 101.

@Totallyrandomname

Generally I consider lesbians to be females attracted to other females (female bodies/biology not female as a gender identity).

However if a woman and a trans woman were in a relationship and considered it a lesbian relationship I wouldn’t argue with how they personally described their relationship. I don’t suppose there is a specific alternative term is there?

They could make one up? After all most pronouns appear to be made up now.

I also wonder very much about the partner's identity.

Someone I knew a long time ago came out as a lesbian in her late twenties - she came from a v religious family. All great, then had a serious girlfriend, they got engaged. Then about 7 years later, announced they were trans. Since then has lined up surgery, legally changed name, etc etc. Still with original female partner.

And I really wonder about her identity. I think its great their relationship survived. But: to be a supportive partner, she presumably agrees she's now in a relationship (and I guess always was in a relationship) with a man. I know they were quite 'activist' in LGBT movements, the person I know posted it was through working with trans people they realised they were trans not lesbian. So.... what does it mean that she now has to take on either a 'cis, straight' label, or at least a 'cis, bi' label? Does their relationship allow them to admit she wouldn't be in a relationship with any other man?

In general, I think sexuality and identity are complicated, and there's a difference between public policy and letting people live their lives. But by definition, these definitions impact on the other half of a relationship, and their identity and it seems v tricky and confusing. A bit like the PPs son who seems pretty clear that they respect their non-binary girlfriend's identity but wouldn't be attracted to them if they were biologically male and don't identify as gay, but then there's societal pressure that says 'well if you're not gay then you don't really believe your 'partner' is non-binary'.

It is very complicated.

[quote PurpleyBlue]@RedToothBrush so all those blokes who put their mate in a dress on his stag do are making him a transwoman according to stonewall? So he can go in the ladies loos?[/quote]
Yes.

This is what we have been trying to warn people about.

[quote Thelnebriati]@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers

A genuine question - do lesbians have protection in law? I'm ignorant on this. (I mean aside from sexual orientation as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act, which doesn't single out lesbians).

Yes, lesbians are protected in law;

''A man who is attracted only to other men is a gay man. A woman who is attracted only to other women is a lesbian.'''
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/9[/quote]
With the added clarification of the definition of man and woman.

Equality Act 2010
(1)In this Act—
“the Commission” means the Commission for Equality and Human Rights;
“detriment” does not, subject to subsection (5), include conduct which amounts to harassment;
“equality clause” means a sex equality clause or maternity equality clause;
“equality rule” means a sex equality rule or maternity equality rule;
“man” means a male of any age;
“maternity equality clause” has the meaning given in section 73;
“maternity equality rule” has the meaning given in section 75;
“non-discrimination rule” has the meaning given in section 61;
“parent” has the same meaning as in—
(a)the Education Act 1996 (in relation to England and Wales);
(b)the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 (in relation to Scotland);
“prescribed” means prescribed by regulations;
“woman” means a female of any age

I have deleted irrelevant points, but here’s the link.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/212?view=plain

Is there anywhere in the world where same gender attraction is persecuted? If a feminine woman is attracted to a feminine man for example? Or does that just apply to same sex attraction? Because then you have your answer as to why it’s important.

Ninkanink who is "we"? Is there a group? where can I read more? This all sounds a bit worrying.

[quote Redapplewreath]If you're unsure why this may be an issue for lesbians then this article and some of the social media evidence may be of interest: lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/[/quote]
I'm sure most straight women find this degree of petulance and entitlement unattractive, even with a dick attached.

How can you identify as a lesbian. You have to be female to be a lesbian and you don't identify as one - you just are one. Like I don't identify as a white personality I just am one. You can identify as a different gender but you can't change your sex and sexual attraction is based on sex. If you are happy with a trans person as a partner I would say you are Pan sexual. Certainly for me I am attracted to males who look like males and identify as male (even if they wear make up and dresses - I like a man in makeup ). I wouldn't be interested in a man who actually looked like a woman though so I am heterosexual.

@CardinalLolzy

A genuine question - do lesbians have protection in law? I'm ignorant on this. (I mean aside from sexual orientation as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act, which doesn't single out lesbians).

Homophobia (along with biphobia and transphobia) are characteristics that are 'monitored strands' of hate crimes (i.e. characteristics that may change a crime into a 'hate' crime).

However, the definition of hate crimes is
"Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity."

So it could be perceiving someone as straight under that.
I must admit I'm not sure what 'monitored strands' means exactly.

Thanks Your Grace,

I'm not sure this helps out in this discussion. My dim recollection is that it's still a hate crime if it's motivated by a belief that the person has the characteristic, even if they don't. There wouldn't need to be an investigation into whether the victim of crime is a lesbian, or exactly what that means, only whether the perpetrator thought they were.

You have to be a woman.

I would say a man that transitioned / partly transitioned (that can mean just saying you are s woman) to a woman and then said they want to date women would in my opinion have phycological problems.

@CardinalLolzy I'd have thought most importantly genitals but also hormones etc. Not just name, pronouns or clothes. They need to be physically transitioned (or have started a transition).

Why would it make me transphobic to not consider someone who isnt TRANSING a trans person?

I’d assume lesbians were females. I feel so sorry for lesbians who are accused of bigotry and transphobia.

I feel like there should be a word for a trans woman who wishes to be a lesbian but I can’t get beyond fantasist.