Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

[neroforte]

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

@YetAnotherSpartacus

It used to be called 'same-sex attracted' - and for a good reason.

It still is in some evangelical Christian circles.

@Hoppinggreen

Lesbians are women Women are adult human females who are and have always been biological women. It’s pretty simple. If you are a biological woman only attracted to other biological women then you are a lesbian. Nobody else is a lesbian

This

I suppose two people with penises who identify as women would still describe themselves as in a lesbian relationship despite two penises being involved

Brilliant, @MadeOfStarStuff. Shows what a lot of old nonsense this is, if 2 gay guys can become lesbians just because!

Gender for me

Lesbians are same sex attracted
Gay men are same sex attracted
Bisexual people are attracted to both.

Any consenting adult can enter into a relationship with one or more other consenting adults and it is their business alone.

Any adult can refuse to be in a relationship with another adult for whatever reason they want. That's the basis of consent.
Consent can be withdrawn at any time.

Anyone who tells another who they should be in a relationship with is wrong.

I think it’s fine for lesbians to set their own boundaries on this without others trying to force some kind of defining label on it. Some lesbians are happy to be involved with trans women. Some aren’t. Both are valid positions, and neither precludes them from being lesbians.

@PurpleyBlue

Why does it have to be defined?

What’s the point in having words without definitions?

I'm not sure it matters that much. If you're a female lesbian and you don't want to have sex with a particular trans woman identifying as lesbian, then she just falls into the (presumably very large) category of people (lesbian or otherwise) whom you don't fancy. So you're not going to have sex with her. You might not generally fancy blonde women or tall women or Tories or women who do actually tick all your theoretical boxes but just don't have an indefinable something. No lesbian has a right to expect sex with any other lesbian. Most of them are not going to fancy you!

I think it depends on the person doesn’t it. Some lesbians might be okay being in a relationship with someone born male but identifying as female. Others may not. I don’t think there should be any judgement either way.

What’s the point in having words without definitions?

There is a definition. But like a lot of definitions it can be a bit blurred round the edges. Lesbian = woman who fancies women. But that doesn't really get us any further.

You have to be female to be a lesbian, obviously. It’s SEXuality, nothing to do with gender.

@PurpleyBlue

Why does it have to be defined?

How else can it be protected in law?

@Hoppinggreen

Lesbians are women Women are adult human females who are and have always been biological women. It’s pretty simple. If you are a biological woman only attracted to other biological women then you are a lesbian. Nobody else is a lesbian

This.

If you are a man and you say you are a woman and a lesbian it doesn't mean you are anymore than if a man said he was a fruit bat - doesn't make it so. Let them say or identify as anything they want but biologically we all know what they really are.

How else can it be protected in law?

In that context it will be for the judges to decide the legal definition. That's going to be a blockbuster of a case in the Supreme Court!

Lesbian = same sex attraction.
All attractions between all consenting people are fine and dandy, but words have meanings.

@LakieLady

I suppose two people with penises who identify as women would still describe themselves as in a lesbian relationship despite two penises being involved

Brilliant, @MadeOfStarStuff. Shows what a lot of old nonsense this is, if 2 gay guys can become lesbians just because!

That is brilliant.

Sounds like a great sketch...

@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers

How else can it be protected in law?

In that context it will be for the judges to decide the legal definition. That's going to be a blockbuster of a case in the Supreme Court!

Although actually do lesbians have any special legal protection?🤔

People can't be discriminated against based on sexual orientation. But that's not the same thing.

Sex

This thread is making me think of Magdalen Bern's.

She had so much to say on this one.

Such a sad loss.

R.I.P

@Naunet, I posted too soon I was asking why OP was defining it I thought they might be trying to complete some paperwork.

Sex. Women born female loving other women born female.

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? It would not be lesbian, which has a specific meaning. But I understand if the people involved don’t want to call this relationship “straight” either. I think this is one reason why terms like “queer” exist - even though I am very careful about using that, as a reclaimed term which is still very very traumatic for a large part of the LGBT+ community.

Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman identified male? It depends, but generally no - “lesbian” is a term for women who are exclusively attracted (sexually and romatically) to women. There are some circumstances in which a lesbian may be in a sexual/romatic relationship with a man - usually involuntarily - but it's important to be careful in talking about this, because there has been a really strong effort lately to suggest that women who "think" they are exclusively attracted to women can just "get over it" and be involved with a man. That's not true, it's rape culture, and anyone who cares about feminism and LGBT+ rights will understand that and resist it.

@Hoppinggreen

Lesbians are women Women are adult human females who are and have always been biological women. It’s pretty simple. If you are a biological woman only attracted to other biological women then you are a lesbian. Nobody else is a lesbian

That sums it up.

Why does it have to be defined?

Sometimes people want to use words to describe things. For example governement might want to check discrimination is not targeted at Lesbians or that appropriate services are targetted at them.

I am a lesbian. I am a woman and I am only attracted to women.

However I know lesbians who are attracted to both women and trans women.

They're still lesbians.