Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

[neroforte]

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

donquixotedelamancha yes I was wondering why OP was trying to define it, if its for an official form I'd give them a call and ask them what to put.

To me it is a same sex not same gender. To me a biological male who likes biological women is straight, and how they like to dress and define themselves doesn't change that really.

@Totallyrandomname

Generally I consider lesbians to be females attracted to other females (female bodies/biology not female as a gender identity).

However if a woman and a trans woman were in a relationship and considered it a lesbian relationship I wouldn’t argue with how they personally described their relationship. I don’t suppose there is a specific alternative term is there?

There is a difference though, isn't there? I wouldn't go up to a woman and a trans woman were in a relationship and say "you can't define yourself as lesbians, fuck off".

But If I saw a trans woman saying to a lesbian "you are a bigoted terf! Suck on my girl dick" I would say "you are clearly not a lesbian, fuck off!"

I think the alternative definition is "heterosexual".

Stonewall say it's gender:

Refers to a woman who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards women. Some non-binary people may also identify with this term.
(They also include TW as women, so it's not based on sex).

Homosexual:
This might be considered a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender. The term ‘gay’ is now more generally used.

About a year ago, Stonewall tweeted this but then quickly deleted it and no longer refer to same-sex attraction.

I think you're attracted to who you're attracted to so labels aren't always helpful, BUT, if you need protection in law - for example if you're a disadvantaged group - it needs to be accurately defined.

OMG, it seems I have a genital fetish... I could never bring myself to be attracted to anyone with a vulva! Or is it just lesbians who have to put up with that crap?

Anyway, same sex relationships involve same sex.

Gender. If someone identifies as a woman and is attracted to women. Though I wouldn't really care what anyone identified as

I'm not sure it matters that much. If you're a female lesbian and you don't want to have sex with a particular trans woman identifying as lesbian, then she just falls into the (presumably very large) category of people (lesbian or otherwise) whom you don't fancy. So you're not going to have sex with her.

@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers Just curious:

Would it matter more if someone wanted to describe themselves as black or disabled when they weren't?

What about if I want to self-define as Lesbian to access targeted funding or a particular award, is that OK?

Sex, the clue is in the word homosexual.

Stonewall? I'd mention something about arseholes and elbows but they'd blur the two if they could get funding for it.

@LakieLady

I suppose two people with penises who identify as women would still describe themselves as in a lesbian relationship despite two penises being involved

Brilliant, @MadeOfStarStuff. Shows what a lot of old nonsense this is, if 2 gay guys can become lesbians just because!

Yeah, I used to be a man, but for the last two hours my DP (unbekownst to her!) has been a lesbian. I'm going to change back in 20 minutes and she'll be hetero again!

Should I tell her the ups and downs she's been through this afternoon or should I keep it to myself.

100% defined by sex.
Lesbians are women attracted to other women, with female anatomy and biology.

Interesting point, @JediGnot - any gender flipping of an individual will change the sexuality of the person who loves them. It's all very messy and makes me feel old.

If you're unsure why this may be an issue for lesbians then this article and some of the social media evidence may be of interest: lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/

@LittleDidSheKnow

Interesting point, *@JediGnot* - any gender flipping of an individual will change the sexuality of the person who loves them. It's all very messy and makes me feel old.

This thread is making by brain work hard!

Hi @donquixotedelamancha

Hard questions!

Would it matter more if someone wanted to describe themselves as black or disabled when they weren't?

Those two things are quite good examples, because they're not that easy to define either. Have a go. There's a lot of room for argument round the edges.

What about if I want to self-define as Lesbian to access targeted funding or a particular award, is that OK?
I don't really like the sound of that. But what if a biological woman of ambiguous sexuality claims she's a lesbian, just doesn't have a partner? There isn't really an objective definition. There's no blood test. All lesbians self-identity.

Homosexual people are attracted to the same sex as themselves. People with the same bodies.

Lesbians are female homosexuals.

So….

I have a lesbian friend who lives with a Transman. She is attracted to her partner as a sexual partner because of her female body (amongst other things, obv).

They see themselves as being in a sane sex relationship

BUT if lesbian wants to have a relationship with a Transwomen because she is attracted to the Transwoman’s appearance, demeanour, feminine identification etc, good for her. I would expect her partner to be understood as a Trans lesbian, maybe.

Lesbian women who are attracted to the same arc should never ever be expected or pressurised to accept relationships with Transwomen, and the notion that lesbians who are not attracted to Transwomen are transphobic is ludicrous.

And behind the formation of the Lesbian and Gay Alliance, because of Stonewall’s ostracism of many lesbian women.

@FourTeaFallOut

Stonewall? I'd mention something about arseholes and elbows but they'd blur the two if they could get funding for it.

They'd just tell you the only thing that matters is whether it identifies as an arsehole or an elbow.

Lesbians are homosexuals.

The clue is there.

Saying that males can be lesbians is homophobic.

@LargeYorkshirePuddingAndGravy

I am a lesbian. I am a woman and I am only attracted to women.

However I know lesbians who are attracted to both women and trans women.

They're still lesbians.

They are not.

Lesbians are homosexuals.

If they want to give themselves the description homogenderists or bisexual then fine, but thats something different.

The point is the sex of someone - if you are having sex involving opposite sexs thats hetrosexuality whether you want to admit to it or not.

This has an impact on others if you start redefining what a lesbian is and make it so its not longer the preserve of homosexuals.

You can't remake this up to match your political beliefs.

I'm not going to get into this debate being neither a lesbian or trans but "genital fetish" ? Never heard that 😅 How can being attracted to certain genitals be a fetish as surely in order for something to even be a fetish it has to be outside of sexual norms? Wouldn't that be a highly offensive thing to say about any lesbian as their sexual desires have historically been othered? I don't really get how someone could be claiming to be an LGBTQ ally and say that? Maybe I just don't get it?

No, I'd imagine it would be a relationship between a straight man who liked to present in a certain unconventional way, and a bisexual woman. A lesbian is a human female who is attracted exclusively to the female body. Men cannot be lesbians. If a lesbian woman wants to have a relationship with a post-op trans woman, good luck to them both, but I think the l-word belongs exclusively to women.

Straight relationship and no. If my husband decided he wanted to wear a dress, would that make me a lesbian? Of course it wouldn't.

@SunflowerOwl

Lesbians are same sex attracted but I'd still consider a woman a lesbian if their partner was a transwomen, especially post sex reassignment surgery.

I'm not sure if I would consider a straight woman to have 'turned' into a lesbian if their DH came out as trans though.

Why the double standard and hypocrisy?

You can't change sex. You can only change gender (assuming you believe in gender as a concept of course).

Never has language been so important. I think a lot of people still dont understand the negative effect of allowing language to become so fluid.

I'm not a lesbian but I have a lesbian married couple in my family and they are sick to death of men and well meaning women rewriting what their sexuality means. Why does no one ever question if a transman is gay if they get with a male bodied person?

They are female and attracted only to other females. That is what being a lesbian is. If you are a trans women and get with another trans women that means they are just two gay men. They are defiantly not lesbians because they are not female.

Not only that, why the fuck should a male bodied person win awards or access funding that was solely set up for females. What gives them that right? Where are all the transmit winning gay awards or claiming funding set up specifically for gay men? When was the last time a transman won a male award? oh I know ...never.

There is a big divide in the lesbian and gay community, most gay men dont give a fuck about the encroachment of women's rights because they are largely unaffected by it because they are just not being hammered by transmen and being blackmailed in to sleeping with women. Funny that isn't it.

@RedToothBrush I'm not sure really it was just my gut feeling.

Perhaps because transwomen are creating the illusion that they are of the same sex when they transition and that may suffice to attract some lesbians? I guess its very personal.