Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

[neroforte]

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

I think a lot of people still assume that a transwoman will have had surgery on their genitals. The fact is that the vast majority retain their penis, even if they have facial surgery and silicon implants. (I think the GIRES charity said only 5% of transwomen are what we used to call 'post op').

I'm bi so I've been going to gay clubs since I my teens and I've never met a single lesbian who is attracted to male genitals. I really hope that young lesbians don't feel pressured to include transwomen into their dating pools to 'be kind'.

I have realised this doesn’t need to have a label. My 13 year old boy is dating a non-binary biological girl and I’ve had similar questions. He has had friends call him gay which he doesn’t like and says he isn’t. I wanted to know if I call them his girlfriend or what and he said partner first or all and then changed it to girlfriend. My husband struggled with it (not the relationship but more the confusion of labels etc.) so I think it’s much simpler to relax and not worry about labels and definitions. My son is happy how things are and he likes spending time with his girlfriend and that’s all that matters I think. Ive also had my 9 year old daughter declare to the family she dancers girls and boys so I’ve really had to roll with the punches lately 😂

Lesbians are women who are same sex orientated.
People who are attracted to partners of either sex are bisexual.

'Gender' is not a sexual orientation, and cannot be codified. It has to be defined because if you cant define something, you can't protect it in law.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/9

It's quite confusing!

I have a friend who is trans (was born female and transitioned to male). Prior to transitioning they went out with men only. Now that they have transitioned they go out with women. It baffled me for a while but it doesn't really matter!

@GypsyWanderer

I have realised this doesn’t need to have a label. My 13 year old boy is dating a non-binary biological girl and I’ve had similar questions. He has had friends call him gay which he doesn’t like and says he isn’t. I wanted to know if I call them his girlfriend or what and he said partner first or all and then changed it to girlfriend. My husband struggled with it (not the relationship but more the confusion of labels etc.) so I think it’s much simpler to relax and not worry about labels and definitions. My son is happy how things are and he likes spending time with his girlfriend and that’s all that matters I think. Ive also had my 9 year old daughter declare to the family she dancers girls and boys so I’ve really had to roll with the punches lately 😂

Bloody hell, being 13 doesn't get any easier, does it?

Surely it’s up to the people involved. I’ve known women who identified as lesbians find themselves suddenly attracted to/dating a man and finding it really hard to let go of their identity as a lesbian. It doesn’t harm me if they use the term because it fits their social circle, politics and who they see themselves as being… and I’m certainly not policing the identity of people in a relationship with a trans person. Why should someone who dates a person who looks like a woman and has a vagina give up their identity as a lesbian to appease a bunch of strangers

@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers they certainly have extra worries than what I had at school plus all the usual stuff!

@GypsyWanderer

I have realised this doesn’t need to have a label. My 13 year old boy is dating a non-binary biological girl and I’ve had similar questions. He has had friends call him gay which he doesn’t like and says he isn’t. I wanted to know if I call them his girlfriend or what and he said partner first or all and then changed it to girlfriend. My husband struggled with it (not the relationship but more the confusion of labels etc.) so I think it’s much simpler to relax and not worry about labels and definitions. My son is happy how things are and he likes spending time with his girlfriend and that’s all that matters I think. Ive also had my 9 year old daughter declare to the family she dancers girls and boys so I’ve really had to roll with the punches lately 😂

It actually really DOES need to have a label. Because lesbians have been getting an awful lot of hatred and abuse for stating they are same sex attracted, and for trying to date other biological adult human females.

@LittleDidSheKnow

Interesting point, *@JediGnot* - any gender flipping of an individual will change the sexuality of the person who loves them. It's all very messy and makes me feel old.

No it absolutely would not change the sexuality of the person who loves them.

To me a lesbian is someone who wants same sex relationships, and is biologically a woman. A female homosexual.

And if some people's wish was granted, an endangered group of people. Lesbians did not exist in law until the late 1990s and I think some people wish that change to be reversed, albeit for different reasons than offending Queen Victoria.

[quote SunflowerOwl]@RedToothBrush I'm not sure really it was just my gut feeling.

Perhaps because transwomen are creating the illusion that they are of the same sex when they transition and that may suffice to attract some lesbians? I guess its very personal.[/quote]
Is that true?

According to Stonewall you no longer have to have gender dsyphoria to be called trans. You only have to be a cross dresser - who might be entirely comfortable with their actual sex.

Btw its important to note what is recognised as institutionalised homophobia. Note the bit about how people identify.

Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of sexual orientations that are non-heterosexual. Recognized types of homophobia include institutionalized homophobia, e.g. religious homophobia and state-sponsored homophobia, and internalized homophobia, experienced by people who have same-sex attractions, regardless of how they identify.

Lesbophobia is the intersection of homophobia and sexism directed against lesbians.

Stonewall is institutionally homophobic and sexist. Regardless of how it identifies.

@Peoniesandpeaches

Surely it’s up to the people involved. I’ve known women who identified as lesbians find themselves suddenly attracted to/dating a man and finding it really hard to let go of their identity as a lesbian. It doesn’t harm me if they use the term because it fits their social circle, politics and who they see themselves as being… and I’m certainly not policing the identity of people in a relationship with a trans person. Why should someone who dates a person who looks like a woman and has a vagina give up their identity as a lesbian to appease a bunch of strangers

Why have you specified appearance and, presumably, surgery? A person can appear as male as they were born and still have a female gender identity. If they identify as female would you think their appearance or lack of any medical intervention was an issue to being a lesbian?

This is the thing that seems to cause the most confusion to people who haven't been keeping up with the gender/sex debate. You can't say only people who dress/appear a certain way or have had successful surgery can be treated as female whereas other people can't... .can you? The thing women-as-gender have in common is an innate feeling of being female (gender - I'm not sure I understand it or have one so sorry if I'm misrepresenting it) not whether they have anything physical in common.

It's surely no different to straight orientation - lesbians are women attracted to women, straight women are women attracted to men, etc.

I think the confusion comes because we are not always great at tracking reality, so you might find yourself attracted to say a man because you think they are a woman. That's where they jump out and say aha!! It is not just sexual attraction!! But of course the reply is just yeah, I was mistaken. Just as some folk's intuition can go haywire and have them be attracted to manga characters.

@LadyOfLittleLeisure

I'm not going to get into this debate being neither a lesbian or trans but "genital fetish" ? Never heard that 😅 How can being attracted to certain genitals be a fetish as surely in order for something to even be a fetish it has to be outside of sexual norms? Wouldn't that be a highly offensive thing to say about any lesbian as their sexual desires have historically been othered? I don't really get how someone could be claiming to be an LGBTQ ally and say that? Maybe I just don't get it?

It's offensive to lesbians, but it's also offensive to anyone gay or hetero too.

I find it incredibly hard to accept that my opposite sex attraction is a fetish. Surely a fetish is more akin to - say - being attracted to people wearing dresses, irrespective of their sex?

Sex not gender ....100%

Only biological females can be a lesbian, no matter how much anyone else wants to call themselves one.
What is the big fascination for males wanting to be called a lesbian......utter nonsense.

@Peoniesandpeaches

Surely it’s up to the people involved. I’ve known women who identified as lesbians find themselves suddenly attracted to/dating a man and finding it really hard to let go of their identity as a lesbian. It doesn’t harm me if they use the term because it fits their social circle, politics and who they see themselves as being… and I’m certainly not policing the identity of people in a relationship with a trans person. Why should someone who dates a person who looks like a woman and has a vagina give up their identity as a lesbian to appease a bunch of strangers

Because its not about the feelings and emotion and politics of identity.

Its about factual description.

If you are sexually attracted to someone who is a differet sex to you, regardless of their gender, you are hetrosexual.

And continuing to call yourself a lesbian affects others because of the protections that lesbians have in law which are based on SEX not gender.

@newnortherner111

To me a lesbian is someone who wants same sex relationships, and is biologically a woman. A female homosexual.

And if some people's wish was granted, an endangered group of people. Lesbians did not exist in law until the late 1990s and I think some people wish that change to be reversed, albeit for different reasons than offending Queen Victoria.

A genuine question - do lesbians have protection in law? I'm ignorant on this. (I mean aside from sexual orientation as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act, which doesn't single out lesbians).

Because its not about the feelings and emotion and politics of identity.

Its about factual description.

Isn't sexual attraction absolutely about feelings? Lesbians self identify. How else can they be determined?

"Fetish" usually refers to a fixation on an object or non-genital body part, which can 'stand in' for the more common genital/sexual intercourse body parts.
"Genital fetish" is therefore a bit meaningless.

@RedToothBrush

I wouldn't consider someone without gender dysphoria that had no desire to transition a 'transwoman' though so no I wouldn't consider their female partner a lesbian.

Trans is short for transition, no? Surely its meaningless without that.

@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers

Because its not about the feelings and emotion and politics of identity.

Its about factual description.

Isn't sexual attraction absolutely about feelings? Lesbians self identify. How else can they be determined?

No. Its something someone just is.

Lesbians can't change their feelings and 'be educated' that transwomen are really the same sex as them. They just 'are'.

Try and have this argument with a gay man. I think you'd get pretty short shrift. Nope its sexism that suggests that women are not simply just lesbians, bi or straight with a huge bloody debate about gender politics.

Its institutionalised and internalised homophobia.

@JediGnot well exactly!

No penis involved. I thought that was the definition.

A genuine question - do lesbians have protection in law? I'm ignorant on this. (I mean aside from sexual orientation as a protected characteristic in the Equality Act, which doesn't single out lesbians).

Homophobia (along with biphobia and transphobia) are characteristics that are 'monitored strands' of hate crimes (i.e. characteristics that may change a crime into a 'hate' crime).

However, the definition of hate crimes is
"Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity."

So it could be perceiving someone as straight under that.
I must admit I'm not sure what 'monitored strands' means exactly.