Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

[neroforte]

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

@Bloodybridget I suspect you’d go off them because rampant internalised misogyny isn’t very attractive

@HermioneWeasley I don't think, myself, that a woman who transitions is necessarily succumbing to internalised misogyny. Certainly, that could be the case for some.

A lesbian is a female homosexual, someone attracted to the same sex.

Ex-men can't be lesbians as far as I can understand.

The ex-men don't like this though, and try and muscle their way into women's pants any which way they can. Which seems very male behaviour and illustrates the differences between the sexes beautifully.

It seems very important for transgender people to be treated exactly as if they had really changed sex and not just their gender identity and to have that validated by homosexual people of the opposite sex. If a same sexed attracted person of the opposite sex finds you attractive it must be the ultimate validation of your adopted gender identity.

The vegan analogy is a good one.

If someone tells you they are a vegan who is inclusive of steak and hamburgers... you may think it's strange but politely not disagree with them.

If they insist that you agree that veganism can be inclusive of people who eat animal products and this is a modern and better version of veganism, you may not be willing to comply, and have other views you equally feel they should hear and take into account if they want to discuss this with you.

If they try to insist that you, personally, as a vegan, must be inclusive of animal products and show them that you are right now, you may reach the point of suggesting that they fuck off. It's called 'forced to the discourtesy'.

If they begin to vigorously campaign, as part of a group, to re configure the word and meaning of vegan in law to mean omnivore and demand that this is celebrated over and above old hat type vegans who are called bigots and threatened with lynching, kerb stomping and rape for non compliance......? And all vegan groups and organisations and retail outlets are taken over and forced to comply with this much better version of veganism while reminding the world how awful old veganism was?

You may at this point start writing to MPs and joining groups to stand up to all this, because ffs.

What do you think the consequences should be for TW who call themselves women?

It's the consequences for actual women that we are worried about. In drafting and enforcing laws for sex based rights, in protecting services and spaces for women who need them on account of their female biology. And because I'm a bit of an assigned female at birth child of a monarch and I'm getting tired of being called a bleeder or a menstruator.

Do you not think it's all gone a bit arse about face when people selling menstrual products are avoiding the word "woman" at all costs, but would get cheered and applauded for using it to describe an intact male person who wanted them to?

What's wrong with the word "transwoman"? What's the objection to using that one?

“What do you think the consequences should be for TW who call themselves women?”

^
Personally I wouldn’t really care how someone refers to themselves in a day to day sense. I would be happy to use female pronouns if someone asked me to even if they were born in a male body. I certainly don’t think there should be any ‘consequences’ for someone male presenting as female in every day life.

However I do think that the difference between a man and a woman (biologically) needs to be retained in law and sex based policies. As the PP stated I feel this way because I think there would be negative consequences to women of not retaining that difference in law and policy.

Can I ask you a question- what do you think the consequences of allowing anyone who identifies as women, regardless of their biology, to placed together in the same prison would be?

Lesbians don't have penises.

Actually even positing the question that lesbians could not be same sex attracted is homophobic and against The Equality Act in which sexual orientation is a protected characteristic.

@334bu

Actually even positing the question that lesbians could not be same sex attracted is homophobic and against The Equality Act in which sexual orientation is a protected characteristic.

This is nonsense!

Same sex attraction is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.

Same sex.

This is nonsense!

Maybe I did not make myself clear.
The word lesbian is defined in the Equality Act as a female person sexually attracted to female people. Therefore, to imply as the question does that same " gender" attraction is the same as same sex attraction and as a consequence a male person can claim to be a lesbian, could be construed as homophobic .

@334bu

*This is nonsense!*

Maybe I did not make myself clear.
The word lesbian is defined in the Equality Act as a female person sexually attracted to female people. Therefore, to imply as the question does that same " gender" attraction is the same as same sex attraction and as a consequence a male person can claim to be a lesbian, could be construed as homophobic .

The Equality Act outlaws discrimination and harassment based on protected characteristics. I think you've misunderstood it. It does not make asking questions illegal.

No it just makes them homophobic.

What do you think the consequences should be for TW who call themselves women?

Well nothing, obviously I'm capable of listening to someone saying something I disagree with without the stupid infantile stuff of 'cancelling' and shouting a lot of violent hyperbole. Functional adults can handle this kind of thing.

What I do want is for government, law, public bodies and the general public to maintain equality of respect and consideration for all parties in this situation and not erase women or redefine lesbianism in ways that are actively harmful for people. There should absolutely be consequences to them for failure of impartiality, not withstanding a lot of highly biased political 'controversial' hard sell and emotive tantrums to serve the public without favour or bias, and enabling a lot of misogyny and homophobia. A public inquiry would be a good place to start.