Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

[neroforte]

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

And yet, as a heterosexual woman, I've never been described as hateful or been vilified for not considering a transman part of my dating pool. It's not even a thing.

I'm sure there could be a reason why transmen don't feel entitled to unravel the boundaries of everyone else around them and demand a place in their sexual diary - if only I could put my finger on what that reason might be.

Thanks Your Grace

I'm not sure this helps out in this discussion. My dim recollection is that it's still a hate crime if it's motivated by a belief that the person has the characteristic, even if they don't. There wouldn't need to be an investigation into whether the victim of crime is a lesbian, or exactly what that means, only whether the perpetrator thought they were

So you see why you still have to be able to define that characteristic in the first place?

im not sure this helps out in this discussion. My dim recollection is that it's still a hate crime if it's motivated by a belief that the person has the characteristic, even if they don't.

Yes, that's what the "perceived" bit means in my post you quoted.

100% sex.

A transwoman in a relationship with a woman is in a heterosexual relationship.

A transwoman in a relationship with a woman is in a heterosexual relationship.

But on an official form if they put they were a woman in a heterosexual relationship the form people would think they were a man.

Which would then get confusing

Lesbians are female people who want sexual relationships with female people.

Otherwise, they are identifying as a Lesbian, which isn't the same thing.

If it's not defined by sex the term lesbian becomes meaningless. It's just an undefined relationship between two people.

@Snugglepumpkin

100% sex.

A transwoman in a relationship with a woman is in a heterosexual relationship.

So if you were friends with a lesbian couple and found out that one of them was a trans woman who was completely transitioned since before they were together and fully passed as a woman... you would suddenly consider them straight? Even if you had no idea?

The thing women-as-gender have in common is an innate feeling of being female (gender - I'm not sure I understand it or have one so sorry if I'm misrepresenting it) not whether they have anything physical in common.

But the whole point is all women experience womanhood different. There's no commonality of feeling like a woman among women. What we share in common is biological sex characteristics - x chromosomes, ovaries, uteruses, breasts, reduced height & weight relative to men, much lower testosterone, higher oestrogen etc.

@Naunet

Thanks Your Grace

I'm not sure this helps out in this discussion. My dim recollection is that it's still a hate crime if it's motivated by a belief that the person has the characteristic, even if they don't. There wouldn't need to be an investigation into whether the victim of crime is a lesbian, or exactly what that means, only whether the perpetrator thought they were

So you see why you still have to be able to define that characteristic in the first place?

If I attack a transwoman who I see with her female partner because I don't like lesbians I think (rightly or wrongly) it is a hate crime because I think she's a lesbian (and I think that's technically true even if she isn't, although unlikely to be prosecuted).

I'm not sure if I would consider a straight woman to have 'turned' into a lesbian if their DH came out as trans though.

What do you mean, you aren’t sure? Of course your own sexuality can’t be changed by another person’s actions. This is the problem with the situation we find ourselves in now. When TWAW is followed to its logical conclusion, it makes no sense.

Sexuality and gender identity are entirely separate issues - them being conflated within organisations that used to campaign for gay rights is part of the problem.

Sexuality is sex based. Gender identity is not a factor.

Has anyone noticed that the vocal transwomen who criticise lesbians for being averse to male genitalia are very insistent that they must have sex with lesbians? Not women, lesbians. Only lesbians will do, because it’s only about validation of their existence as a woman and nothing else. Why wouldn’t they date a heterosexual or bisexual woman who is happy to date a biologically male person who has transitioned to a female gender identity? The answer to that question is very telling.

Lesbian sex only involve two females.
A lesbian could be involved with a post op Transwoman, and I'd let that pass.
But if it's pre op. Then that is normal sex which can result in a child.

To say a lesbian is attracted not to someone of the same sex but rather to someone of the same " gender" is homophobic .

[quote SunflowerOwl]@CardinalLolzy I'd have thought most importantly genitals but also hormones etc. Not just name, pronouns or clothes. They need to be physically transitioned (or have started a transition).

Why would it make me transphobic to not consider someone who isnt TRANSING a trans person? [/quote]
Starting transition is as simple as telling your mum/neighbour/best mate that you are now a trans person.
Self Id.

No one has to have operations or change any part of their appearance.

They say the magic words and now they are allowed into any and all female spaces. Including DV shelters, prisons and sports < not an exhaustive list

If lesbians can not define themselves as homosexuals how do they protect themselves in law and in practice by those who identify as women?

Trans people who have ungone gender reassignment have their own protections in law without the need to erase lesbians.

This law also allows for exclusions on the basis of sex - and where the is conflict between rights is able to balance needs.

However unless lesbians are defined as homosexuals and only female they may lose all protection in law that they already have.

It’s funny isn’t it that lesbians are getting a load of abuse for not wanting to date transwomen. You don’t really hear of heterosexual men getting abuse for not wanting to date transwomen. What’s the difference? Oh yeah actual women have to always be the enemy and the ones who are wrong.....

So if a person with a penis puts on a dress and says "I'm a woman" and then asks a lesbian out and they say no, the woman can be called transphobic? Why doesn't the person with a penis just ask people who like penis out?

(Apologies if I've used the wrong terminology there)

Im not sure it's my business to define anyone else's sexuality. I have done the deed with a transwoman and as far as I'm concerned, I had sex with a woman. There are many lesbians our there who have sex and relationships with transwomen, and they are lesbians because they say they are. You could try to argue with them, or me and tell me you disagree, but it actually doesn't matter because it's none of your business, and people are allowed to define their own relationships.

Lesbians are same SEX attracted and at the moment are being shat on from a great height by some people who think they should be willing to have sex with male bodied people. Its my belief that a lot of young girls who would grow up to be perfectly well adjusted lesbian adults may go the gender re-assignment route under pressure from some of the adults around them and this is worrying.

@Woeismethischristmas

I’d assume lesbians were females. I feel so sorry for lesbians who are accused of bigotry and transphobia.

I feel like there should be a word for a trans woman who wishes to be a lesbian but I can’t get beyond fantasist.

In answer to OP, it has to be sex, not gender.

Generally speaking, as a lesbian, I would say that a lesbian is a person who is attracted to people with a vagina. I am certainly not arrogant enough to tell a woman in a relationship with a person who was born a man and who has transitioned that they cannot be a lesbian.

Can I say for certain that I will never have consensual sex with a person with a penis? Yes. Can I say that I would never have consensual sex with a person born male who now has a vagina? No. Do either of those statements mean I am not a lesbian? No, of course not.

I have a friend who has fully transitioned from male to female. He is married to a woman. His wife is straight. She is not suddenly a lesbian because her husband was born with a vagina.

Woman is a word that denotes the female sex, NOT gender.

Lesbians are same sex attracted women.

I have a friend who has fully transitioned from male to female. He is married to a woman. His wife is straight. She is not suddenly a lesbian because her husband was born with a vagina.

If he transitioned to female then he wasn't born with a vagina?