Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

[neroforte]

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

@Ijustreallywantacat

Are you saying that I - a man - can now speak on behalf of the gay community because I regard my relationship with my female DP as a gay one?

If thats really how you feel then go for it! Of course noone speaks for the whole gay community, just as part of it. 😀 Just check with your partner to see if they'd be okay with it. My fiancee has previously only been in relationships with men, and I have largely been with women. We jokingly call ourselves lesbians sometimes. In some ways I would still call myself a lesbian.

This is deranged pretzel logic masquerading as open minded tolerance.

There is actually nothing liberal about a man in a heterosexual relationship claiming to speak on behalf of gay people, just as there's nothing liberal about using the term "lesbian" for the relationship of two intact male people who have taken no steps to feminise their bodies and intend to take none. It erases the very people for whom these terms were invented and renders them effectively meaningless.

You are not doing people a favour when you stop their name from actually meaning anything. It's not liberal and progressive to "include more people" in the definition, it's regressive and erases the people who need it most. You agreed earlier that distinctions need to be made, so why are you trying to erase the meanings of the words that express the distinction?

Why would a trans woman ask a straight woman/ lesbian out? What gives them the right to put them in an awkward position.

People aren't mind readers and don't know what other people are in to all the time. I got it wring many a time when I was dating women. The main reason the other girls threw my PE kit in the toilet and called me 'dyke' and 'carpet muncher' actually. I had dared to ask a girl out at school and word got around. Didn't know if she was straight or not. Guess I shouldn't have put her in that awkward position.

Absolutely nothing you can do about the fact that they might call themselves lesbians though.

I don't think anyone has suggested 'doing something' about how people feel. I can call myself slim and gorgeous and sod the sniggers I get.

The point is about public policy: about funding, representation, crime stats, sports, medicine, prisions etc.

Lesbians are women

A woman is an adult female

So yes defined by sex

I was reading an article by a trans woman who identified as non binary. They commented that might be confusing for some and will take time for them to get their head around (no most won’t waste their time bothering and will just roll their eyes)

@neroforte

Yes I agree that it’s based on same sex attraction, not gender identity. Got into an argument on TikTok over it which is why I’m asking lol

Oh god. Good luck with that! TikTok is not remotely gender critical as a platform.

@Ijustreallywantacat

So two intact male people could form a lesbian relationship?

Sure! That is a not uncommon situation in LGBT+ circles. You may not call them that, or mutter something under your breath, and you have that right. Free country!
Absolutely nothing you can do about the fact that they might call themselves lesbians though.

Free country 😩 if only that were true. It is clear you’re really young. Too young to remember what it used to be like for same sex attracted and bi people.

A man could go to prison for having sex with another man until 1967. Although not carried out since 1830 something, a man could be sentenced to death for having sex with another man until about 1961.

Now all this may seem like ancient history to you. But it isn’t to some of us. I wasn’t born then but I remember what it was like for lesbians, gays and non whites growing up in the 70’s and 80’s. And it wasn’t pretty.

You probably think this has no relevance. But it does. Conflating same sex and same gender attraction swipes away all of the rights people earned. And you’re happily giving them away.

Some (mainly) older, more experienced women are fighting for these rights. And if they don’t, we will be going back at least to pre 1960’s in terms for women’s rights and for some women, it will be pre 1860’s.

“ I was reading an article by a trans woman who identified as non binary. They commented that might be confusing for some and will take time for them to get their head around (no most won’t waste their time bothering and will just roll their eyes)”

@OhWhyNot that genuinely seems so bizarre! Do you have a link, I’m really intrigued to understand how you somebody can get to that place?

I still think so much of all of this stuff could be resolved by everyone accepting that gender isn’t a real thing at all, it’s just a societal created nonsense intended to reduce women’s power. But even if I accepted gender is a thing to people I cannot get my head around how a person feels the need to change sex but then rejects any gender (which it reads like must be what happened here)!

No I’ve been trying to look it up

Personally I don’t think it’s bizarre just a desire for attention

Two women were caned in Malaysia for having lesbian sex.

Imagine that

@littlbrowndog

Two women were caned in Malaysia for having lesbian sex.

Imagine that

They couldn't identify out of it, hey.

It drives me nuts how these people obviously think they're being so progressive and open minded by pretending words don't mean things and anyone can be a woman. They have absolutely no understanding that oppressors have no trouble identifying the women or the gay people and why the supposed rescuers need to be able to do the same.

What the fuck is the point of having a word for lesbians or any concept of lesbianism if you truly believe it can apply equally to two intact males?

@Ijustreallywantacat

What exactly is transphobic about that?

Because they are being aggressive specifically because the other person is transgender.

Similar to a gay man asking another man out and the other person reacting aggressively because they are being asked out by a gay man.

There's just no need for it.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Good analogy. I've a lot of sympathy with the gender-critical movement, but this thread is really not showing them in a good light.

@littlbrowndog

Two women were caned in Malaysia for having lesbian sex.

Imagine that

I'd be interested to know if those who consider their gender to be female, in spite of their sex being male, who considers themselves a lesbian, (and who are in a relationship with a woman) would stick to their assertion that they are in a lesbian relationship, if they were faced with this level of punishment?

In Hungary, where same-sex marriage is illegal, they've had the first "lesbian" marriage. Between two people born male.

extract

Ironically, that made the wedding possible, as Csillag was stuck with male documents while Angyal had already completed her transition and had the documents to prove it.

"Our dream has come true. We are so happy to have received an official seal on our relationship," Angyal said after the ceremony, holding hands with her new wife.

She kissed her and said: "I love you."

"I love you back," Csillag said.

Theirs was far from a smooth journey. Both had families as men before coming out to live as women. Of seven children between them, only one, Angyal's son Patrik, was present.

"One of the biggest joys in life is to see your parents happy," Patrik said.

Continues

news.trust.org/item/20201106142801-hkuzf

@PurgatoryOfPotholes that's so insulting. Yet again women continue to be trampled in the race to prove how 'inclusive' we can be.

Peoniesandpeaches
I specified looks and surgery as that has been my experience. All of the trans/cis relationships I know where they identify as lesbians (I work predominantly with the lgbt) have involved that.
It’s incredibly arrogant to assume I haven’t kept up with the debate just because I disagree with you.

So, a person can appear as male as they were born and still have a female gender identity. If they identify as female would you think their appearance or lack of any medical intervention was an issue to being a lesbian?

Just noting that this wasn't answered, by someone claiming to work predominantly with "the lgbt" (people, I assume they meant to say). I'd actually be quite concerned if I was a gay person working with someone who, as far as I can tell, thinks it's looks and surgery that makes someone the opposite gender. Is this official guidance as to where to "draw the line" so to speak?

I'm not really knocking it as it's a really tricky area - many people will accept someone who has, superficially at least, made some effort to change themselves, as "really meaning it", and won't accept someone who hasn't obviously changed anything. But why should looks be the basis of whether you're female or not? I find that depressing for the many women who don't conform to ideals of femininity.

I'm not saying I have the answers - I'm pretty 'live and let live' in real life - unless living is stopping someone else living, so to speak - just musing, really. Some people won't accept any XY people as XX, some will accept all purely on their say-so, and some will accept some who look a certain way or have undergone "sufficient" pain.

Sometimes you can’t identify your way out of getting caned as a lesbian woman

Sometimes you can’t identify your way out of getting FGM as 200 million women’s nd girls will testify who live with FGM

It’s only here in western world where we can have that elistist views where we choose sex or gender

For the rest of the world it is sex

To call a lesbian a bigot if she politely refuses to have a sexual relationship with a member of the opposite sex is homophobic.
This attitude has elements akin to rape culture .

@littlbrowndog

Sometimes you can’t identify your way out of getting caned as a lesbian woman

Sometimes you can’t identify your way out of getting FGM as 200 million women’s nd girls will testify who live with FGM

It’s only here in western world where we can have that elistist views where we choose sex or gender

For the rest of the world it is sex

This.

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]In Hungary, where same-sex marriage is illegal, they've had the first "lesbian" marriage. Between two people born male.

extract

Ironically, that made the wedding possible, as Csillag was stuck with male documents while Angyal had already completed her transition and had the documents to prove it.

"Our dream has come true. We are so happy to have received an official seal on our relationship," Angyal said after the ceremony, holding hands with her new wife.

She kissed her and said: "I love you."

"I love you back," Csillag said.

Theirs was far from a smooth journey. Both had families as men before coming out to live as women. Of seven children between them, only one, Angyal's son Patrik, was present.

"One of the biggest joys in life is to see your parents happy," Patrik said.

Continues

news.trust.org/item/20201106142801-hkuzf[/quote]
Well it IS a same sex marriage.A gay one. And they 'call themselves" lesbians . Doesn't mean they are. They could call themselves purple headed unicorns - doesn't mean they are.

@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers what you had sympathy for women fighting to keep hold of your rights? Thats really odd if you are female.

The word 'lesbian' is very important. This thread is full of females trying to protect that word. It matters. Odd - if your female and can't understand that

Was thinking about this more last night.

Surely part of it is your perception of the other persons sex? If a woman is a lesbian and meets someone else she perceives to be a woman because the hormones/surgery have made it appear that way - it doesnt stop her being a lesbian after she becomes aware the other person is trans, does it.

Surely part of it is your perception of the other persons sex? If a woman is a lesbian and meets someone else she perceives to be a woman because the hormones/surgery have made it appear that way - it doesnt stop her being a lesbian after she becomes aware the other person is trans, does it.

As hardly any transwomen undergo such changes I think that the above can be put firmly into the hypothetical category. Treating people who are same sex attracted as bigots if they say no to someone of the opposite sex is Homophobic and has no place in a civilised society.

People are allowed to say no to whoever they want. Random Internet extreme views aside, TW on the whole are rational people and you will not be labelled a bigot for saying no. I've been there and done just that and it's all good.

@SunflowerOwl

Was thinking about this more last night.

Surely part of it is your perception of the other persons sex? If a woman is a lesbian and meets someone else she perceives to be a woman because the hormones/surgery have made it appear that way - it doesnt stop her being a lesbian after she becomes aware the other person is trans, does it.

Very few have surgery, hormones dont do much to change the body (particularly of those who have gone through puberty. most trans women are easily identifiable as their born sex so the likelihood of this happening is tiny. And even if you meet the few that look like, sound like, have the socialisation of women (none but for this we will pretend) their neo vagina or vault will give them away. It's just not the same.

@Ijustreallywantacat

People are allowed to say no to whoever they want. Random Internet extreme views aside, TW on the whole are rational people and you will not be labelled a bigot for saying no. I've been there and done just that and it's all good.

Will you be labelled a bigot for saying a woman is an adult human of the reproductive class capable of producing ova, and that lesbian sex involves only women?