Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

[neroforte]

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

The Equality Act says:

“1)Sexual orientation means a person's sexual orientation towards—

(a)persons of the same sex,

(b)persons of the opposite sex, or

(c)persons of either sex.”

Discrimination against/harassment of people who are same-sex attracted is therefore unlawful. Describing same-sex attraction as a “genital fetish” or transphobic is blatant homophobia.

Exactly this 👏👏 flowery

Not only is it homophobic but it is also advocating conversion therapy.
That is also the rationale held by those who advocate raping lesbians to make them straight.

@Naunet

Is there anywhere in the world where same gender attraction is persecuted? If a feminine woman is attracted to a feminine man for example? Or does that just apply to same sex attraction? Because then you have your answer as to why it’s important.

I've read the whole thread and this is the post that stuck out for me. No one has answered it.

It is my view that transwomen claiming to be lesbian is a very aggressive form of appropriation. Transwomen know they have a different sex from lesbians yet they think they have the right to demand access to spaces (internet dating sites) and to use this to demonstrate that they are not only oppressed on the basis of their trans status but also the fact that they also have a homosexual status. I'm sorry but this is just plain wrong.

Under the stonewall definition of trans a man who has made no changes to his physical appearance can self declare as a homosexual woman. How people can't see that this is to the detriment of lesbians I have no idea.

It makes me really angry that yet again women must step aside because of male sexual desires. Uggghh. We are teaching young lesbians that they are bigots if THEY refuse penises rather than these males are bigots for appropriating their spaces. The men ALWAYS win don't they.

@PurpleyBlue

So if a person with a penis puts on a dress and says "I'm a woman" and then asks a lesbian out and they say no, the woman can be called transphobic? Why doesn't the person with a penis just ask people who like penis out?

Because ultimately it's about people with a penis getting access to people without a penis.

Biological males don't like the idea that some biological women don't want anything to do with them sexually. There's still a large group of males out there who believe women are only acting lesbian in order to titillate men. They feel entitled to our bodies.

The link I posted earlier screenshots a number of helpful tweets in demonstrating the thinking going on here, but one of them actually berates lesbians for 'selfishly prioritising their orgasms over providing love to those who need it so badly'.

Let's break down the values and beliefs underpinning someone who would actually say that:

a) women have a social duty to provide sex to male people who want it
b) sex is not about their enjoyment or choices or desires, that's selfish
c) female people's feelings and orientation and sexual arousal is irrelevant, they must be prepared to sacrifice this for male people.

And I say 'female people' here because there's no suggestion that such selflessness and duty towards male people is the equal responsibility of TW and NB people. There's no doubt about the sexing of these double standards.

You don't get much more into incel/male sexual rights movement territory than that.

@NanaNorasNaughtyKnickers

What’s the point in having words without definitions?

There is a definition. But like a lot of definitions it can be a bit blurred round the edges. Lesbian = woman who fancies women. But that doesn't really get us any further.

It’s only blurry because of the conflation of sex and gender. Transwomen are transwomen. They are not literally female, they do not belong in lesbian spaces. Lesbians are female homosexuals. Homosexuals are same-sex attracted.

@Redapplewreath

The link I posted earlier screenshots a number of helpful tweets in demonstrating the thinking going on here, but one of them actually berates lesbians for 'selfishly prioritising their orgasms over providing love to those who need it so badly'.

Let's break down the values and beliefs underpinning someone who would actually say that:

a) women have a social duty to provide sex to male people who want it
b) sex is not about their enjoyment or choices or desires, that's selfish
c) female people's feelings and orientation and sexual arousal is irrelevant, they must be prepared to sacrifice this for male people.

And I say 'female people' here because there's no suggestion that such selflessness and duty towards male people is the equal responsibility of TW and NB people. There's no doubt about the sexing of these double standards.

You don't get much more into incel/male sexual rights movement territory than that.

Excellent post!

[quote Mummyoflittledragon]@Musthavesbackagain
[/quote]
Thanks but I am exhausted from observing the mental gymnastics in this thread courtesy of @IJustReallyWantACat and their solo attendance at the Flat Earth Society meeting. Think I may need a lie down to recover. Material reality can be such a bother, can't it. Pesky scientic-based evidence. Terrible.

Thanks but I am exhausted from observing the mental gymnastics in this thread courtesy of@IJustReallyWantACatand their solo attendance at the Flat Earth Society meeting. Think I may need a lie down to recover. Material reality can be such a bother, can't it. Pesky scientic-based evidence. Terrible.

As I understand it, that poster is a female person engaged to another female person (I can't be sure because their use of the word "woman", with no prefixes or qualifiers, has literally no useful meaning as it includes intact male people).

If I do understand correctly, though...do you think, if this couple decide to have children, they will be able to work out which gametes they will need to obtain? And will they know which people produce those gametes?

@DrSbaitso

Thanks but I am exhausted from observing the mental gymnastics in this thread courtesy of@IJustReallyWantACatand their solo attendance at the Flat Earth Society meeting. Think I may need a lie down to recover. Material reality can be such a bother, can't it. Pesky scientic-based evidence. Terrible.

As I understand it, that poster is a female person engaged to another female person (I can't be sure because their use of the word "woman", with no prefixes or qualifiers, has literally no useful meaning as it includes intact male people).

If I do understand correctly, though...do you think, if this couple decide to have children, they will be able to work out which gametes they will need to obtain? And will they know which people produce those gametes?

What do you mean if they decide to have children? Are you implying that producing offspring will require one of them to be biologically male and the other biologically female?? I think that's really transphobic of you to suggest such a thing and you are a bigot.

As I understand it, that poster is a female person engaged to another female person (I can't be sure because their use of the word "woman", with no prefixes or qualifiers, has literally no useful meaning as it includes intact male people).

Female person engaged to a male person actually thanks. Sympathetic to a lot of GC views but difficult to get behind the movement with the behaviour mentioned above. The things I was most objecting to on this thread was a post wherein it was supposedly acceptable to interrogate a random young woman "until they squirm" about their sex life and partner's genitals, and a post proclaiming that it is acceptable to be aggressive to a transwoman because they've asked you out on a date.

You might be confused because at one point I explained that I have called myself a lesbian for most of my adult life, and my fiancé had called himself gay. I said we sometimes joke between ourselves that we're a lesbian couple. Long story and quite outing so I won't get properly in to it.

Anyway, if the above behaviour is acceptable and not totally unnecessary and rude in the eyes of GC community then I'm happy to be called a flat earther.

Glad it was cleared up actually. Most GC people on other threads proclaim that they have 'respect' for TW and that they are not anti-trans at all. Can now see that that's not the case. No respect at all, is there?

Sorry I edited that weirdly. The behaviour mentioned *below, the first paragraph should read

@Ijustreallywantacat

As I understand it, that poster is a female person engaged to another female person (I can't be sure because their use of the word "woman", with no prefixes or qualifiers, has literally no useful meaning as it includes intact male people).

Female person engaged to a male person actually thanks. Sympathetic to a lot of GC views but difficult to get behind the movement with the behaviour mentioned above. The things I was most objecting to on this thread was a post wherein it was supposedly acceptable to interrogate a random young woman "until they squirm" about their sex life and partner's genitals, and a post proclaiming that it is acceptable to be aggressive to a transwoman because they've asked you out on a date.

You might be confused because at one point I explained that I have called myself a lesbian for most of my adult life, and my fiancé had called himself gay. I said we sometimes joke between ourselves that we're a lesbian couple. Long story and quite outing so I won't get properly in to it.

Anyway, if the above behaviour is acceptable and not totally unnecessary and rude in the eyes of GC community then I'm happy to be called a flat earther.

Glad it was cleared up actually. Most GC people on other threads proclaim that they have 'respect' for TW and that they are not anti-trans at all. Can now see that that's not the case. No respect at all, is there?

I'm confused because you don't use sex-defined words for sex definitions. It's basically like me saying I have a pet cat, but in my definition, cat also means horse.

I'm confused because you don't use sex-defined words for sex definitions. It's basically like me saying I have a pet cat, but in my definition, cat also means horse.

Well up until now its not really been relevant what my sex is. Now you know. I used sex based definitions when relevant and necessary. So that's all cleared up.

@Ijustreallywantacat

As I understand it, that poster is a female person engaged to another female person (I can't be sure because their use of the word "woman", with no prefixes or qualifiers, has literally no useful meaning as it includes intact male people).

Female person engaged to a male person actually thanks. Sympathetic to a lot of GC views but difficult to get behind the movement with the behaviour mentioned above. The things I was most objecting to on this thread was a post wherein it was supposedly acceptable to interrogate a random young woman "until they squirm" about their sex life and partner's genitals, and a post proclaiming that it is acceptable to be aggressive to a transwoman because they've asked you out on a date.

You might be confused because at one point I explained that I have called myself a lesbian for most of my adult life, and my fiancé had called himself gay. I said we sometimes joke between ourselves that we're a lesbian couple. Long story and quite outing so I won't get properly in to it.

Anyway, if the above behaviour is acceptable and not totally unnecessary and rude in the eyes of GC community then I'm happy to be called a flat earther.

Glad it was cleared up actually. Most GC people on other threads proclaim that they have 'respect' for TW and that they are not anti-trans at all. Can now see that that's not the case. No respect at all, is there?

I'm not anti trans. Live your best life, as the might Rowling recently said. I do, however, have no respect for anyone who talks a load of anti science rubbish like you have been spouting for several pages. Nothing to do with trans people, but you crack on if that's what you think. And cry me a river while you're at it.

Not anti trans but thinks it's acceptable to interrogate strangers until they squirm about their sex life and partners on their genitals, and be aggressive to TW if they ask someone on a date. How is anyone going to live their best life if people act like that towards them?
OK
That's what I've been talking about for most of this thread. The point about being aggressive towards TW if they ask someone out for a date really got to me because ive been there. I asked another girl out at school, word got round, and the next year of my life was hell. My property was destroyed and every PE lesson I was accused of being a pervert. I was the 'dirty dyke' for 2 years. The PE teacher made me go change in the toilets on my own, rather than punish my bullies. I wouldn't want anybody else to be subjected to that feeling. TW or otherwise.

*Next couple of years of my life were hell, that should read

@Ijustreallywantacat

I'm confused because you don't use sex-defined words for sex definitions. It's basically like me saying I have a pet cat, but in my definition, cat also means horse.

Well up until now its not really been relevant what my sex is. Now you know. I used sex based definitions when relevant and necessary. So that's all cleared up.

You called your betrothed your fiancee. That may have been a typo but from someone who thinks two intact males can have lesbian sex, it was impossible to say.

How about lesbians defining that individually for themselves?

I just didn't pay attention to the spelling. Sorry. New to the betrothed game.

Most GC people on other threads proclaim that they have 'respect' for TW and that they are not anti-trans at all. Can now see that that's not the case

How do you work that out? Some people on this thread or the other one might not be GC (I don’t know what you consider GC as it seems to differ)

Or they might not be on this thread…or they might be on it but not a lot

Seems a bit unfair if you are annoyed on this thread to have a pop at people on a completely different thread

@Ijustreallywantacat

I just didn't pay attention to the spelling. Sorry. New to the betrothed game.

I didn’t know there were different spellings til two minutes ago

How do you work that out? Some people on this thread or the other one might not be GC (I don’t know what you consider GC as it seems to differ)

Or they might not be on this thread…or they might be on it but not a lot

Seems a bit unfair if you are annoyed on this thread to have a pop at people on a completely different thread

You're right. Shouldn't do blanket statements. Just saw a bit red there I guess! Im also semi-GC myself, not that you'd believe it!

@Luzina

How about lesbians defining that individually for themselves?

Can I define myself as black?