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Original poster

Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

366 replies

neroforte · 16/06/2021 15:13

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 16/06/2021 20:20

You can’t be a guy and be a lesbian

Don’t matter how you identify

Guys are not lesbians

Ijustreallywantacat · 16/06/2021 20:22

What if the lesbian say "fuck off, I am a lesbian, a same sex attracted woman, fuck right off"? Is that transphobic?

There is no law against being rude as far as I know.

I would call that transphobic yes. Unnecessary and aggressive. Like you said there's no law against it, and I don't think I've said there should be one.

RhymesWithOrange · 16/06/2021 20:23

@Ijustreallywantacat

What if the lesbian say "fuck off, I am a lesbian, a same sex attracted woman, fuck right off"? Is that transphobic?

There is no law against being rude as far as I know.

I would call that transphobic yes. Unnecessary and aggressive. Like you said there's no law against it, and I don't think I've said there should be one.

What exactly is transphobic about that?
Enough4me · 16/06/2021 20:23

Lesbians have not just appeared, the term was known before the trans debates. Lesbians have vaginas and are attracted to those with vaginas, i.e. women.

Trans people have trans relationships. They do not need to change or stomp over terminology that already exists, but can use trans relationship to be factual.

DrSbaitso · 16/06/2021 20:26

@Ijustreallywantacat

You disagree with Rachel Dozial calling herself black but you're fine with two men calling themselves lesbians

Yep!
Makes no odds to me. They're not stupid and they know that they were born male. Makes no difference to me.

But it does make a difference to you. Because you disapprove Dozial claiming a black identity, but not of male people claiming a female one, lesbian even.

What's the difference?

Ijustreallywantacat · 16/06/2021 20:28

What exactly is transphobic about that?

Because they are being aggressive specifically because the other person is transgender.

Similar to a gay man asking another man out and the other person reacting aggressively because they are being asked out by a gay man.

There's just no need for it.

Iluvfriends · 16/06/2021 20:28

[quote Shamoo]@Marguerite2000 so a woman who has only ever had sex with people with vaginas, who continues to have sex with her wife who has a vagina, is not a lesbian because the wife was born male but fully transitioned before they got together? What is her sexual orientation then, is she now straight despite only ever having had sex with people with vaginas?[/quote]
A transwoman with a vagina is still a biological male. It's not just vaginas lesbians are attracted to it's everything about a female. Just because someone says they are female it doesn't make them so.

Shamoo · 16/06/2021 20:29

Hi @PurgatoryOfPotholes - I did see your response, but I assume you know it doesn’t answer my question. I can rephrase it if easier. What do you feel is the sexual orientation of a woman who was born female, has only ever had sex with people with vaginas, identifies as a lesbian herself, and then marries a person (their legal wife, who they now have sex with) who before they met had transitioned from male to female with the surgical creation of the closest thing medicine can create to a vagina.

RhymesWithOrange · 16/06/2021 20:29

If you know someone is a vegetarian it's rude to keep asking them to have a bite of your burger. It's disingenuous to say "but fish doesn't really count". It's creepy and aggressive to sneak meat into their meal and pretend it was meat-free.

If a male knows someone is a lesbian and persistently insists that they should consider a sexual relationship with them it's the same thing. They are not respecting that person's boundaries and putting them on the defensive. They should not be surprised if they get a less than polite response.

Vegetarianism is a choice. Being a lesbian isn't.

HermioneWeasley · 16/06/2021 20:29

@Ijustreallywantacat

Well congratulations to you for being homophobic and laughing at appropriating others’ oppression. Bully for you. Bet you wouldn’t go to Iran and claim your sex with a male person was a lesbian relationship, because they’d execute you.

You’re just disgusting. I don’t have any words for the contempt i hold you in.

Shamoo · 16/06/2021 20:30

@Iluvfriends so presumably the wife is bi despite never ever having had sex with somebody with a penis and not having ever been attracted to a person with a penis?

RhymesWithOrange · 16/06/2021 20:30

@Ijustreallywantacat

What exactly is transphobic about that?

Because they are being aggressive specifically because the other person is transgender.

Similar to a gay man asking another man out and the other person reacting aggressively because they are being asked out by a gay man.

There's just no need for it.

They would be aggressive to any male who made the same advances. Their rejection is not based on the person's trans status, but on their sex.
RhymesWithOrange · 16/06/2021 20:32

Also, being rude to someone is not the same as being "phobic". Being rude is not a hate crime. Which is a good thing as the whole country would have a criminal record.

Scrambledcustard · 16/06/2021 20:41

@Ijustreallywantacat

What if the lesbian say "fuck off, I am a lesbian, a same sex attracted woman, fuck right off"? Is that transphobic?

There is no law against being rude as far as I know.

I would call that transphobic yes. Unnecessary and aggressive. Like you said there's no law against it, and I don't think I've said there should be one.

Ah and their we go.

Its transphobic now not to want to shag a man who dresses as a woman? Stop trying to blackmail women in to sleeping with men

THIS is why language matters.

I do wonder who is behind these usernames.

Scrambledcustard · 16/06/2021 20:46

@Ijustreallywantacat

What exactly is transphobic about that?

Because they are being aggressive specifically because the other person is transgender.

Similar to a gay man asking another man out and the other person reacting aggressively because they are being asked out by a gay man.

There's just no need for it.

In what world do you live in where you think people are perfectly allowed to ask you for a shag and you can't tell any one to fuck off.

How do the conversations go in your head.

'hello dear do you fancy a shag?'

'Oh thank you for the kind offer but not tonight and it defiantly isn't because you've got a penis, its not about you its really about me and my bigoted way'..

Hoppinggreen · 16/06/2021 20:50

@Ijustreallywantacat

What's wrong with transwomen accepting that lesbians aren't into them?

Well that's just not correct. As I said before, if you had asked me a few years ago I would have said I was a lesbian. I dated many women and that included transwomen. Many lesbians are in to them.

Again, if its only asking someone out, I don't see the problem. There's nothing wrong with saying no, and the TW I know have no issues with being rejected.

Do you think that TW who do ask women out deserve rude behaviour or abuse because of it? That they should just not ask people out, in case they say no? I don't really understand what the alternative is to people being free to ask who they want out, and people being allowed to say no.

Asking anyone out is ok if done appropriately Demanding they go out with you and calling them names when they don’t is NOT ok and neither is being rude to the person who asked Male rage at being told no by a woman is the same no matter how the man presents himself or whatever label they want to put on themselves

And I would say that women who date someone with a penis are NOT lesbians

Hoppinggreen · 16/06/2021 20:52

@LargeYorkshirePuddingAndGravy

I am a lesbian. I am a woman and I am only attracted to women.

However I know lesbians who are attracted to both women and trans women.

They're still lesbians.

How? They are attracted to biological men
Scrambledcustard · 16/06/2021 20:53

@Ijustreallywantacat

You've still not answered my question though - Is it ok if a white women pretends she is black because she identifies with it?

I dont think it's pleasant and I certainly don't agree with it but I don't think it should be illegal, and it's not. Rachel Dozial (sp) lost her job, many friends, and respect from her community when it all came out. That's pretty much the extent of the punishment she should receive imo.

So you dont agree with a white women pretending that she is black, taking awards and appointments that were set up specifically for black women

but you do agree with men pretending to be women and calling themselves lesbians and taking awards and appointments specifically set up for women.

Right....bit of unconscious bias there OP

Ijustreallywantacat · 16/06/2021 20:53

Its transphobic now not to want to shag a man who dresses as a woman? Stop trying to blackmail women in to sleeping with men

That is not what I said. I said I think its transphobic to be so uneccessarily aggressive to somebody because they are transgender!

Asking someone out on a date is not the crime of the fucking century and doesn't merit that response.

As for me, I have been thrown in bushes, groped, bullied, subject to intrusive and uneccesary questioning because of my 28ish year long identity as a lesbian or bisexual woman. I am surrounded by transwomen and people along the evil bloody gender spectrum and I don't see the bogeyman that the people of MN see. I just see my colourful bunch of friends who just want to live their lives the way they see fit.

Mummyoflittledragon · 16/06/2021 20:54

@Ijustreallywantacat

*If someone wants to be in a relationship with a Trans person fine. But why distort the true. Your with a feminine male, your not with a female. In the words of Shakespeare. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Renaming a penis to anything else does not stop it being a penis.*

It's true for you, it's not true for me.
I'm not going to start redefining my life, nor my friend's lives, for the sake of YOUR opinion.
Words have changed throughout history for good reason and they will continue to do so.
Marriage used to be defined as between a man and a woman. You'd hear the same things trotted out about 'why can't they call it something different?'. Thank God that changed.

I know many transwomen, I do not know of all of their genital configurations, but I don't care. They are well aware they were born male, and are technically so, but they also believe in the concept of gender. It's not something I believe in for myself, but I know my opinion is not the be all and end all and I'm happy to accept that they are feeling things that I can't understand.

It is so sad that you cannot see that taking this position weakens Women’s rights. Women need protection for a reason. We are weaker, slower and smaller, especially when we are pregnant, are caregivers to very young children and as we age. Our rights are not yours to give away.
Ijustreallywantacat · 16/06/2021 20:55

*In what world do you live in where you think people are perfectly allowed to ask you for a shag and you can't tell any one to fuck off.

How do the conversations go in your head.

'hello dear do you fancy a shag?'*

At no point in our original conversation did we talk about asking for a shag. I was talking about asking someone out.

merrymelody · 16/06/2021 20:57

Desire.

Scrambledcustard · 16/06/2021 20:58

@Ijustreallywantacat

Its transphobic now not to want to shag a man who dresses as a woman? Stop trying to blackmail women in to sleeping with men

That is not what I said. I said I think its transphobic to be so uneccessarily aggressive to somebody because they are transgender!

Asking someone out on a date is not the crime of the fucking century and doesn't merit that response.

As for me, I have been thrown in bushes, groped, bullied, subject to intrusive and uneccesary questioning because of my 28ish year long identity as a lesbian or bisexual woman. I am surrounded by transwomen and people along the evil bloody gender spectrum and I don't see the bogeyman that the people of MN see. I just see my colourful bunch of friends who just want to live their lives the way they see fit.

Well you always do get turkeys voting for Christmas.
Scrambledcustard · 16/06/2021 21:00

@Ijustreallywantacat

*In what world do you live in where you think people are perfectly allowed to ask you for a shag and you can't tell any one to fuck off.

How do the conversations go in your head.

'hello dear do you fancy a shag?'*

At no point in our original conversation did we talk about asking for a shag. I was talking about asking someone out.

Why would a trans woman ask a straight woman/ lesbian out? What gives them the right to put them in an awkward position.
WhiteFeministWarMachine · 16/06/2021 21:00

@Ijustreallywantacat

So two intact male people could form a lesbian relationship?

Sure! That is a not uncommon situation in LGBT+ circles. You may not call them that, or mutter something under your breath, and you have that right. Free country!
Absolutely nothing you can do about the fact that they might call themselves lesbians though.

They would not be lesbians no matter what they called themselves.