Do you think lesbian is defined by sex or gender?

[neroforte]

So, if someone was of male sex, but identified as a woman, and they dated a woman, would it be a lesbian or straight relationship? Would the bio woman still be considered a lesbian for dating the woman indentified male?

Why can't a woman be an adult human of the reproductive sex class capable of producing ova?

It is. In my opinion it is also inclusive of male sexed people who have undergone at least a social transition and call themselves women. I think I distinguish between 'woman' and 'female' because I don't believe gender and sex are the same thing.

If it was penguins I'd identify lesbian penguins based on sex so I am leaning that way but that might just be because I don't know the penguin's gender.

And it needs to not just be 'don't tell other people what to call themselves, we're all modern now and have moved past such boundaries'

I'd have a bit more patience for this movement if there was the slightest suggestion that it really was breaking down such boundaries and leading to equality. As it is, when it comes to deciding who has to give over, who has to accept "varying definitions" of the word that describes them and all that results from that, people still seem to know fine well who the assigned female at birth people are. And I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that when it comes to the bulk of domestic shitwork, who has to care most for ailing elderly parents and so on, people still know who the assigned female at birth people are. I'm not even going to go into actual reproduction here, but I think we can still work it out for that too.

If it was penguins I'd identify lesbian penguins based on sex so I am leaning that way but that might just be because I don't know the penguin's gender.

Penguins are notoriously hard to converse with. Can barely string a sentence together. If they could I suspect it would mostly be about fish.

In my opinion it is also inclusive of male sexed people who have undergone at least a social transition and call themselves women.I don't believe gender and sex are the same thing.

With all due respect for your opinion, we need a pretty firm definition in order to identify natal women for their sex based rights and protections. Woman has done fine for a long time, so what's the problem with it now?

I don't know what gender is if it's not a load of reductive stereotypes, but anyway. If they are two different things, why not "woman" for adult sexed female and "transwoman" for adult sexed male with female gender identity? And vice versa for men and transmen.

@Ijustreallywantacat

If it was penguins I'd identify lesbian penguins based on sex so I am leaning that way but that might just be because I don't know the penguin's gender.

Penguins are notoriously hard to converse with. Can barely string a sentence together. If they could I suspect it would mostly be about fish.

In fairness, there's fuck all going on in a penguin's life to make small talk about. It's all just Antarctic wastelands and trying to get money out of McVities for the use of their image on those chocolate biscuit bars. Hunting for fish is the highlight.

@Ijustreallywantacat

If it was penguins I'd identify lesbian penguins based on sex so I am leaning that way but that might just be because I don't know the penguin's gender.

Penguins are notoriously hard to converse with. Can barely string a sentence together. If they could I suspect it would mostly be about fish.

Maybe us humans have just overcomplicated things with all this talk of gender

Are you suggesting that transgender people calling themselves lesbians should be unlawful...?

No absolutely not but we should learn from the past decade of Watertown of language the negative effect on women it has.

We went from calling not minding that trans women were called women (because they are only harmless transexuals that want to fit in)to then females being renamed as 'cis" women whilst transwomen took the name women.

We then started seeing men taking females only awards as they were 'women'

We then got called bigots if we didn't want to sleep with a woman with a penis. Because trans women are real women right? This was embedded in society so much be true!...

We then got called chest feeders by the NHS or period havers by san pro companies.

So women (real females) have lost a lot of ground by the diluting of language

You've still not answered my question though - Is it ok if a white women pretends she is black because she identifies with it?

[quote Shamoo]@Marguerite2000 you haven’t answered my question! Im genuinely interested in how you feel that woman should categorise herself, given that the implication of all you say is she cannot be a lesbian herself despite being born female, considering herself a lesbian, and only ever having sex with people with vaginas. This is a real example, so please explain what you think her sexual orientation should be.[/quote]
You may have missed my response.

Can surgery turn a spare kidney into a functioning heart for someone who needs a heart transplant?

The vagina is not just a random hole! It is a tube surrounded by muscle, and its function is to provide an exit from the uterus. It has unique physiology of its own.

A post-op natal male transsexual has a vaginal vault or neo-vagina. (And I wish them well!) But they do not have vaginas. Surgical origami changes the external shape and appearance of their organs, it does not change their nature.

A kidney cannot be folded into a heart, and male genitalia do not get folded into female genitalia.

Maybe us humans have just overcomplicated things with all this talk of gender

I agree. that's why should get rid of gender and just use sex. So much easier.

I find the idea that post-op natal male transsexuals have vaginas stunningly misogynistic

It's very phallocentric. The vagina is not just a hole you can stick a penis in. It is a specific body part

I don't know what gender is if it's not a load of reductive stereotypes, but anyway. If they are two different things, why not "woman" for adult sexed female and "transwoman" for adult sexed male with female gender identity? And vice versa for men and transmen.

Why not is because whether you like it or not, a not insignificant number of people choose to use the word woman to categorise themselves, that don't fit your definition. Trans people do use the terms AMAB and AFAB, biological sex, c*sgender and transgender to differentiate between the two. Biological sex should absolutely remain a protected characteristic, and for things that matter like courts, doctors etc there should absolutely be a distinction. I agree with you there. But day to day, I really can't see how it harms me to broaden the definition of 'woman'. Transgender and transexual women have been calling themselves that long before all this vitoral started up anyway.

I am a gender abolitionist. Gender is the tool used to subjugate the female sex around the world. I want nothing to do with it, and want gender stereotypes to disappear forever.

I am an adult human female, exclusively attracted to other adult human females. I am lesbian. I will never, ever align myself with any other definition.

You've still not answered my question though - Is it ok if a white women pretends she is black because she identifies with it?

I dont think it's pleasant and I certainly don't agree with it but I don't think it should be illegal, and it's not. Rachel Dozial (sp) lost her job, many friends, and respect from her community when it all came out. That's pretty much the extent of the punishment she should receive imo.

It is so fucking offensive to suggest that male people can be lesbians. Same sex attraction is the basis of the discrimination and oppression gay and bi people experience across the world, including being executed by your government.

Biological sex should absolutely remain a protected characteristic, and for things that matter like courts, doctors etc there should absolutely be a distinction.

And why can't the distinction be man and woman, transman and transwoman? Why the avoidance of the word woman, or the wish to dilute it down until it doesn't actually distinguish between the sex classes, as in the case of your lesbian couple who both have penises?

@Ijustreallywantacat

You've still not answered my question though - Is it ok if a white women pretends she is black because she identifies with it?

I dont think it's pleasant and I certainly don't agree with it but I don't think it should be illegal, and it's not. Rachel Dozial (sp) lost her job, many friends, and respect from her community when it all came out. That's pretty much the extent of the punishment she should receive imo.

You disagree with Rachel Dozial calling herself black but you're fine with two men calling themselves lesbians?

Lesbian here 👋🏼

I am same SEX attracted. The idea of sex with a penis repulses me no matter how you identify or present. If you have a penis I’m not interested. I am told regularly that this makes me transphobic, I have a vagina fetish etc.

Lesbian erasure by transwomen is a massive issue right now and even the organisations set up to fight for lesbian and gay rights have thrown us under the bus in the name of being ‘woke’. I’m looking at you stonewall.

Let’s face it, men have been trying to convince lesbians to sleep with them since the dawn of time, this is no different.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Im not sure it's my business to define anyone else's sexuality. I have done the deed with a transwoman and as far as I'm concerned, I had sex with a woman. There are many lesbians our there who have sex and relationships with transwomen, and they are lesbians because they say they are. You could try to argue with them, or me and tell me you disagree, but it actually doesn't matter because it's none of your business, and people are allowed to define their own relationships.

Are you saying that I - a man - can now speak on behalf of the gay community because I regard my relationship with my female DP as a gay one?

Let’s face it, men have been trying to convince lesbians to sleep with them since the dawn of time, this is no different.

I was just thinking, how is this any different to the openly straight man who's convinced lesbians just haven't encountered the right (ie his) penis yet?

You disagree with Rachel Dozial calling herself black but you're fine with two men calling themselves lesbians

Yep!
Makes no odds to me. They're not stupid and they know that they were born male. Makes no difference to me.

@SlipperyDippery

I’m not a lesbian so not really important what I think regarding lesbians specifically, but to me sexual attraction is of course based on sex.

I don’t want to have sex with someone with a vagina however they identify. We have sex with our genitals and I have no wish let alone sexual desire to have sex with another vagina.

This is a good explanation.

I immediately wondered after reading the OP but would have said lesbians are woman.

But that's an excellent point about genital and sexual relationships.

@Ijustreallywantacat

So if a person with a penis puts on a dress and says "I'm a woman" and then asks a lesbian out and they say no, the woman can be called transphobic? Why doesn't the person with a penis just ask people who like penis out?

If the lesbian said "No, you delusional (transgender slur)" then yes that's transphobic.
If they said, "No, ta" then no it isn't.

People reject people for all kinds of reasons. As is your right. Nobody has to go out or have sex with anybody.
Pointing out that its because they are fat, have a big nose, short, disabled, black, trans or any other physical characteristic that defines them is rude or worse.

What if the lesbian say "fuck off, I am a lesbian, a same sex attracted woman, fuck right off"? Is that transphobic?

There is no law against being rude as far as I know.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Having a penis is a physical characteristic. So they're not allowed to say that?

Can you not see that saying "No thanks you have a dick" is rude? Let's leave transphobic out of it. Can you not see that it's just rude?! Think it all you want, for sure.

What's wrong with just saying "No"?

Perhaps "no" isn't strong enough and doesn't get the message out there - a message that really seems to need to be made - that same sex attracted people are not attracted to the opposite sex.

Are you saying that I - a man - can now speak on behalf of the gay community because I regard my relationship with my female DP as a gay one?

If thats really how you feel then go for it! Of course noone speaks for the whole gay community, just as part of it. 😀 Just check with your partner to see if they'd be okay with it. My fiancee has previously only been in relationships with men, and I have largely been with women. We jokingly call ourselves lesbians sometimes. In some ways I would still call myself a lesbian.