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Original poster

Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

999 replies

LiberaceTrumpet · 13/06/2021 14:19

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

OP posts:
WheresTheLambSauce · 13/06/2021 15:24

Bit of a risky thread to make, but I do support trans women (and trans people as a whole) as well, OP. And not just in the conditional "yes, but only if they exist/identify according to my terms" sort of way.

I generally avoid any threads relating to GC/trans issues like the plague. There are civil discussions on here, but also a lot of mudslinging and arguing back and forth. It's a waste of time to read threads and get into debates that will only upset you!

herecomesthsun · 13/06/2021 15:24

@Helleofabore

#iagreewithShirleyPhallus
as do I

also, kindness and respect needs to be mutual

ArabellaScott · 13/06/2021 15:25

False dichotomy, OP.

I support transwomen. That's cool. I am happy to help make sure they live their best lives.

I also am happy to make sure women have single sex spaces.

HTH.

SweetPetrichor · 13/06/2021 15:25

I support trans women and trans men. I believe that trans women are women and should be allowed access to women’s facilities, trans men are men and should be allowed access to men’s facilities. I believe that gender is not binary. I do not, however, believe in self-ID. I believe that once a person starts to transition they should be treated as the gender they are transitioning to unless they say otherwise, but not before. I do not believe that surgical changes are necessary to be accepted as your desired gender. I couldn’t care less if another women in the public toilets still has a penis - it’s none of my business.
I think that the non-binary discussion has muddied the waters a bit in the discussion around what is transgender and how to support them.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 13/06/2021 15:25

If TWAW how do you manage the intersection with the protected characteristic of religion? The vast majority of TW do not have reassignment surgery. Muslim and Jewish women may not be able to share a changing room with them on the basis of sex.
Whose rights prevail?

This is why the debate needs to move on from no debate, emojis and slogans.

Trans rights need to be respected alongside other rights not in preference to them.

Helleofabore · 13/06/2021 15:25

I'd like to point out to OP that many of the people posting on this thread are not regulars of the feminist chat board.

What you seem to think is 'gender critical' seems to poll on any AIBU thread as being the belief of 95%+ nearly every time. Yet, you and others seem to think it is an 'extremist minority'.

OF COURSE people support transwomen and, more importantly, transmen (which you really did seem to forget in your OP). And many transwomen and transmen share this 'gender critical' belief you disparage. And quite a few actually post here on MN.

If you want advice, ask away. After all, most women who are up to date with the research, the papers and the latest developments are in a very good position to be helpful.

GromblesOfGrimbledon · 13/06/2021 15:25

This thread is a total non-starter because the assumption is that GC feminists don't support trans people.

GC feminists support trans people but maintain biological truths and want to protect women's spaces.

Stop the presses!!

Collaborate · 13/06/2021 15:26

I support trans women and trans men. I also recognise that you cannot claim to support them on the one hand and on the other hold one or both of the following beliefs:

  1. That they must use the toilets and changing facilities of the gender they were assigned at birth.
  2. That cis gendered people should feel entitled to have an opinion about treatment that trans people and their doctors decide aid needed.
Secretusername3 · 13/06/2021 15:26

OP has gone.

Gumbomambo · 13/06/2021 15:26

I’m with @ShirleyPhallus I 100% support trans people but I’m not foolish enough to think that human beings can change sex. I also feel serious concern for trans people who are sold false promises and go on to cause irreparable damage to themselves. Trans people deserve better.

Orf1abc · 13/06/2021 15:27

@LiberaceTrumpet You're not alone, in the general population you're in the majority. Unfortunately MN is well known for its 'tolerance' of intolerance towards trans women.

SoapboxFox · 13/06/2021 15:27

there's always another trans thread

So click 'hide thread' and read other topics?

readytosell · 13/06/2021 15:28

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

I stand by this too.

I support the rights of trans people (both tw and tm) and non-binary and any other form of self expression.

I do not believe that overrides sex based rights that have been so hard fought for.

Blossomtoes · 13/06/2021 15:29

Team @ShirleyPhallus.

orinocosfavoritecake · 13/06/2021 15:29

OP - I agree with you. It’s sad to see gender critical people swamping every thread about trans rights. Mumsnet feels very unwelcoming if you disagree with them.

Permanentlytiredout · 13/06/2021 15:29

I support the trans community and do not agree with the general opinions and attitude surrounding this on Mumsnet. I won’t be commenting on this any further, just stating my support here.

Erikrie · 13/06/2021 15:32

You're not alone, in the general population you're in the majority. Unfortunately MN is well known for its 'tolerance' of intolerance towards trans women.

Although of course Mumsnet is not a hive mind, it would seem to me that generally mumsnet is not intolerant to transwomen.

It is however intolerant to trans activism. Because trans activism seeks to remove sex based rights and safeguards.

orinocosfavoritecake · 13/06/2021 15:32

What Permanentlytiredout said. It’s got to the point here where any poster who dares to describe themselves as ‘cis’ gets jumped on!

Bluethrough · 13/06/2021 15:32

I support trans community.

But i also look at the threats to womens safety and rights and that comes from men.

Beeeeeeeeeeeeeep · 13/06/2021 15:33

@NebbiaZanzare

Women being more nurturing and better at childcare than men = a social construct. However it is based in the fact that women give birth and that evolution and attachment leads mothers and infants to be more attached to each other for the first couple of years than they tend to be to anyone else. It's a social construct that leads from a biological fact. However it's also rooted in patriarchy, men wanting to have and keep political and social power by keeping women in the home and away from public life. So it's a complicated social construct. It's also believed to be innate by many men and women because it chimes with their wishes and desires. Social constructs are complex

So if I believe that biology plays a significant role in how gender norms developed, BUT don't believe that anybody should be given a hard time if they don't conform to gender norms ... am I gender critical ?

Pretty much!
ErykahBaddy · 13/06/2021 15:34

@Helleofabore

I'd like to point out to OP that many of the people posting on this thread are not regulars of the feminist chat board.

What you seem to think is 'gender critical' seems to poll on any AIBU thread as being the belief of 95%+ nearly every time. Yet, you and others seem to think it is an 'extremist minority'.

OF COURSE people support transwomen and, more importantly, transmen (which you really did seem to forget in your OP). And many transwomen and transmen share this 'gender critical' belief you disparage. And quite a few actually post here on MN.

If you want advice, ask away. After all, most women who are up to date with the research, the papers and the latest developments are in a very good position to be helpful.

Yep. Most people on here and in real life think it's pretty obvious that a transwoman is still of the male sex and vice versa, and that things like sports and changing rooms should be based on sex rather than gender.

I think what OP is referring to is the smaller group of people on mumsnet who care about the whole issue more than most and like to discuss/debate/organise on here. But since they mostly post in one specific forum, it's pretty easy for me, OP and anybody else with less interest to just not be involved.

Honestly I do see threads on trans issues in the trending box with some regularity, but it's very easy to not click on them. I see way more about cheating husbands and I just don't click on those either! I don't go about complaining that mumsnet is full of women being cheated on!

GCAcademic · 13/06/2021 15:35

[quote Orf1abc]@LiberaceTrumpet You're not alone, in the general population you're in the majority. Unfortunately MN is well known for its 'tolerance' of intolerance towards trans women.[/quote]
What do you mean by tolerance? If you mean respecting people’s rights, being polite to them and wishing them well in life, then the overwhelming majority of posters on here are tolerant towards trans people. If you mean believing that a transwoman is no different from a natal female and that gender identity should trump sex, then polls show quite clearly that the general public does not believe this.

Helleofabore · 13/06/2021 15:35

also, kindness and respect needs to be mutual

This is so true and is most often forgotten.

SoapboxFox · 13/06/2021 15:35

Do you support women, OP? Why do you think women and girls should make way, instead of transwomen creating their own spaces?

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

Who do you think is intersecting and why? Women do not 'intersect' with men though. Men's rights and TW rights don't 'intersect' with women's and girls' rights. Regardless of one's chosen gender, being female is one of two sexes. You are either biologically male or you are not.

Nocutenamesleft · 13/06/2021 15:35

@slightlysnippy

I support trans people, I think we're all fighting for equality. I listened to a very inspiring talk last week from a trans woman discussing her journey. The amount of abuse she receives online and in real life is just unacceptable, we should all be an ally to ensure everyone is treated fairly and with respect.

Although I also believe that biological sex matters for the purpose of statistics , legislative purposes and for such things as competition sport etc.

I agree with This 100%.