Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

please please do not comment here

I don't think that's how the internet works, but obviously I'm very very old.

I note that by 'trans people' and 'trans-inclusive' people seem to be referring to trans women only.
By definition feminists include people born female, however they identify and whether or not they are trans men, non-binary, or whatever.
Girl Guides, for instance, initially became 'trans inclusive' but excluded trans boys. It's not whether or not someone is trans, or has a gender identity, that is of any interest, to most people.

@LiberaceTrumpet

I wish someone would set up a British parenting forum that takes a trans-inclusive stance, to be honest.

They already did, afaik. www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/

@Ninkanink is absolutely spot on

Men cannot literally become women. Women cannot literally become men.Men do not belong in women and children’s safe spaces. Men should not have access to the rights and protections of women, in law or society. Sex is biological fact, and immutable

👏👏👏👏👏

@LiberaceTrumpet You don't know how MN works clearly. You don't get to tell people who can post and what they can post. Hope that clears it up for you.

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

This.

#iagreewithShirleyPhallus

@GrammarTeacher

It might be "relentless" because while people fully support the rights of transpeople in society, they don't believe TWAW/TMAM.

I support human rights for all but with this comes a question of checks and balance.
One group cannot be given permission to disrupt, harm or take away rights from another group.
Wise minds and lots of discussion provided us (UK) with 9 protected characteristics. All are equal in the Law and no one group should seek to over rule another.

It is perfectly possible to support trans without taking away the Single Sex provisions put in place for the dignity, privacy & safety of women and girls.

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

Exactly

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

Yes there is no contradiction there.

Being gender critical is the scientific, rational position but it isn’t incompatible with being supportive to transsexual men and women. The only thing that is rejected by GC ideologist magical thinking.

’I support trans women. I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism’

This ^

@Helleofabore

#iagreewithShirleyPhallus

this

I will quite happily support other people and any section of society which is disadvantaged in some way, whoever they may be. So yes, you can count me as a MNetter who supports transwomen.

Where I draw the line is when others (whoever they may be) are ordering me about and telling me what to do and what to call myself, riding roughshod over my feelings and demanding that their rights supersede mine. I am many things, but a doormat is not one of them.

@lalamo

I'm with *@ShirleyPhallus*

I support trans women but you can't change sex and sex based protections must be kept in place.

Exactly.

This is the common sense , adult stance.

But if you say it you’re “on the wrong side of history”, “transphobic” etc.

That should read; “The only thing that is rejected by GC IDEOLOGIES IS magical thinking.”

Being gender critical is the scientific, rational position but it isn’t incompatible with being supportive to transsexual men and women. The only thing that is rejected by GC is ideologist magical thinking.

This.

Women being more nurturing and better at childcare than men = a social construct. However it is based in the fact that women give birth and that evolution and attachment leads mothers and infants to be more attached to each other for the first couple of years than they tend to be to anyone else. It's a social construct that leads from a biological fact. However it's also rooted in patriarchy, men wanting to have and keep political and social power by keeping women in the home and away from public life. So it's a complicated social construct. It's also believed to be innate by many men and women because it chimes with their wishes and desires. Social constructs are complex

So if I believe that biology plays a significant role in how gender norms developed, BUT don't believe that anybody should be given a hard time if they don't conform to gender norms ... am I gender critical ?

[quote Justa47]@HermioneWeasley

I meant what I said. I think people can change sex with appropriate normal therapies and gender reassignment surgery. So people say you never can. I think that’s wrong.[/quote]
So trans people who haven't done that, haven't changed sex in your eyes? What do they do to change gender? (Sorry not meant to sound interrogative, just curious!)

@lalamo

I'm with *@ShirleyPhallus*

I support trans women but you can't change sex and sex based protections must be kept in place.

Yes!

I also believe that not everyone has a gender identity and that some aspects of the law should not be changed to recognised gender instead of sex.

@CardinalLolzy This was a really interesting statement. It definitely made me think from a different perspective. Thanks!

@shirleyphallus nailed it

I’m afraid that on MN you will find women intelligent enough to know their own views on feminism and bold enough to express them.
We won’t shut up because you tell us to.

@Haffiana

I don't think OP is getting the replies she wanted!

Call me cynical, but I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

@LiberaceTrumpet

Why did you all come here so quickly when I asked you please not to? Are other viewpoints just not allowed on this website?

I know whatever I say you're all going to rip me to shreds - it's bullying behaviour. Can't you see how you're silencing other viewpoints and beliefs on this website?

You asked for people who support transwomen ( and trans men presumably though they do often seem to get lost in the discussion) to come on to the thread and comment. Which as far as I can see is what has happened, mostly very positive comments about support but with the caveat that trans rights do not trump women’s rights.

If you had wanted more then maybe this is not the forum. I think you have been treated kindly, even though I suspect you wanted a bit of a battle.

I wonder what the result would had been had someone posted on a Stonewall board and said they were gender critical but would like to know if , for example, people shared their views about single sex spaces. Would they have been replied to reasonably?

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

Absolutely this. I support transpeople. I support women. I don't support trans activists.