Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

When you say 'support transwomen' do you actually mean 'believe humans can change sex'?

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

This.

Also you can't tell people where they can and can't post on MN

I totally agree with @ShirleyPhallus. Of the 3 trans women I've met 2 where nice normal people just wanting to get on with their lives. One was a whole different story and their behaviour is the sort that makes women fear self ID.

@LiberaceTrumpet

Why did you all come here so quickly when I asked you please not to? Are other viewpoints just not allowed on this website?

I know whatever I say you're all going to rip me to shreds - it's bullying behaviour. Can't you see how you're silencing other viewpoints and beliefs on this website?

I do sympathise. It's not nice to feel like you can't say something without being shouted down.

Unfortunately the OP was phrased in such as way as to imply gender critical people do not support trans women. That's a pretty bad thing to say, so of course you were going to get people defending themselves. They aren't bullying you or trying to silence you, they are just responding to being incorrectly characterised.

I think you might have got closer to the thread you wanted by being clearer about what you meant when you said "supporting trans women" - for example:

"Mumsnetters who believe trans women are women, please comment here"

or

"Mumsnetters who agree with trans ideology, please comment here"

or

"Mumsnetters who think Stonewall are right about Trans rights, please comment here"

I know you would still have got a lot of opposing voices (and I'm sorry about that, because I'd be interested in hearing the gender-critical-critical voices as well) but I think it would have been closer to the topic you wanted to raise.

To be very clear, this isn't me telling you what you can and can't say or trying to put words in your mouth! Just my observation and suggestions which you are free to ignore.

I support trans women (although I'm a bit fuzzy about the precise meaning of 'trans' following lots of discussion on these threads from different points of view, including from trans women themselves who disagree with Stonewall's definition).

I also believe that not everyone has a gender identity and that some aspects of the law should not be changed to recognised gender instead of sex.
I'm not sure if the OP allows me to post here to say I support TW or not, but I do, so thought why not say so.

[quote Justa47]@LiberaceTrumpet

I support transgender people and with gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy you can utterly change sexi as the mind changes.[/quote]
Could you expand on this please?

What do you mean by 'can utterly change sex as the mind changes'?

I fully support TW but I also believe you cannot change SEX.

Transwomen and Transmen both have my full support to be who they want to be and who they were meant to be. I would defend their rights to happiness and being the person that makes them happy to the death.

But I've slowly come to realise certain things I do disagree with in the community - the paedophile pandering that a certain subsection of transwomen seem to find very appealing, the attention seeking of people who will call themselves non binary or transmen (and it's always Transmen) who insist they are transmen but present in a hyper feminine manner and seem to suffer no body dysmorphia at all. I don't support letting children transition before the age of 18 especially not with chemicals that could cause damage. I don't support the idea of transwomen being allowed into rape centres or domestic violence shelters where biological women have trauma around men not because I think transwomen are going to assault them but because these women deserve to have their trauma respected as much as transwomen deserve to have their pronouns respected.

I used to think it was black and white - transwomen are women and transmen are men but it's not that simple it's full of shades of grey where both biological women and men and transexual people deserve respect and neither should be placed above the other.

I don't care about the stupid picky "you can't deny biology" bullshit and I'm not offended by "people who have periods" because inclusion matters to everyone.

I don't think OP is getting the replies she wanted!

[quote Justa47]@LiberaceTrumpet

I support transgender people and with gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy you can utterly change sexi as the mind changes.[/quote]
Since OP hasn’t clarified what is meant by “support transwomen” means, your opinion may not be supportive enough to be allowed. Requiring surgery and hormones before you consider a transwoman to be the female sex (and transmen to be male) would, I believe, be considered deeply unacceptable by some.

You're not being bullied , people are allowed to voice their opinion.

@Justa47

You think peoples brains have a sex but their bodies do not?

That's exactly what a social construct is though!!

Is it ? Oh well, I've misunderstood what a social construct is then. I though SC meant biology had a far lesser role to play.

Like many posters - I know and like and support transwomen and transmen. What makes me sad is that women are called bigots for wanting to protect women's sport or to protect vulnerable children from accessing medication and surgery before they have reached maturity and are certain that these life changing decisions are right for them.

It shouldn't have been like this. We're a democracy and organisations that attempt to change the laws and social practice using the slogan "no debate" are more suited to totalitarian states.

We need to speak about these matters, carefully, sensitively and by listening. Threats, silencing and intimidation harm everyone. We can do better.

I'm gender critical, have longstanding trans friends and would support all trans people if they weren't asking for the impossible squaring of a circle.

It's not gender critical people who are asking for the derogation of anyone's rights.

I support people. I am sympathetic to people's personal and mental struggles. I support men who feel more comfortable in women's clothes but who know they are still fundamentally male.

I do not support trans women that wish to infringe upon biological women's rights and territories.

I an disheartened by the many untruths and fearmongering which is prevelant on here. Its one thing to be gender critical, which in some ways I can get behind, but the constant painting of transpeople as dangerous predators, perverts and delusional people makes me sad.

I find it disheartening to hear the many untruths, fearmongering and constant painting of MN and women who are capable of caring about women's rights and trans rights at the same time, as something so awful and distressing it must be hidden away.

I am very supportive of the needs, rights and protections of trans individuals as already afforded to them by law.

However it absolutely does not follow that I must capitulate to every demand made by every trans individual.

Men cannot literally become women. Women cannot literally become men.

Men do not belong in women and children’s safe spaces. Men should not have access to the rights and protections of women, in law or society.

Sex is biological fact, and immutable.

@Justa47. Justa47
@LiberaceTrumpet

I support transgender people and with gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy you can utterly change sexi as the mind changes.

Are you saying then that a man only becomes a woman if they have fulll surgery and hormonal treatment? So self ID does not count ?

Also at that point will all make specific illnesses disappear?

[quote Justa47]@LiberaceTrumpet

I support transgender people and with gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy you can utterly change sexi as the mind changes.[/quote]
You can't change sex 'in the mind', same as a female can't grow a penis and a man can't grow a uterus.

@LiberaceTrumpet

Why did you all come here so quickly when I asked you please not to? Are other viewpoints just not allowed on this website?

I know whatever I say you're all going to rip me to shreds - it's bullying behaviour. Can't you see how you're silencing other viewpoints and beliefs on this website?

You start a thread about a topic on an open internet bulletin board asking for responses, and complain that posts respectfully disagreeing you is "bullying behaviour"? Really?

You could hang out on AIBU - you'd be kept very busy calling out all the posters there. Or are there only some topics where people aren't allowed to express legitimate views?

Perfectly said Shirley Phallas

@HermioneWeasley

I meant what I said. I think people can change sex with appropriate normal therapies and gender reassignment surgery. So people say you never can. I think that’s wrong.

@NebbiaZanzare

That's exactly what a social construct is though!!

Is it ? Oh well, I've misunderstood what a social construct is then. I though SC meant biology had a far lesser role to play.

Women being more nurturing and better at childcare than men = a social construct. However it is based in the fact that women give birth and that evolution and attachment leads mothers and infants to be more attached to each other for the first couple of years than they tend to be to anyone else. It's a social construct that leads from a biological fact. However it's also rooted in patriarchy, men wanting to have and keep political and social power by keeping women in the home and away from public life. So it's a complicated social construct. It's also believed to be innate by many men and women because it chimes with their wishes and desires. Social constructs are complex.

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

This!

Why are trans men never the subject of support in OPs like this?