Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

Treating everyone equally is pointless, everyone needs to be treated according to their needs.
If the NHS treated everyone equally we would all get a prostate exam and a smear test.

@Oneliner

Young people get it. They're not threatened by equality, they embrace it. Give it a go!

Possibly those young people need to get a bit of life experience and start thinking about embracing equality for women with the many sex based needs that make mixed sex spaces inaccessible for them.

The thing about equality is that it's not just a pretty word that sounds nice and feels nice, it actually does have to include everyone. Not just your mates.

[quote LiberaceTrumpet]**@somethinghastogive46* and @SionnachRua* thank you. It's good to know I'm not alone. I don't really know what to do - it feels wrong to keep coming here sometimes and contributing to mumsnet's profits through seeing their ads. To me it feels like a really different place than it used to be because of all this. Perhaps I should leave, but then that gives the impression that all "British mums" feel this way, when I suspect (hope) it's just a vocal minority.

I wish someone would set up a British parenting forum that takes a trans-inclusive stance, to be honest. The way that people here spend hours coming up with theories and conspiracies and banding together in them doesn't sit right with me. It reminds me of the way incels talk online, weirdly.[/quote]
So set up your own forum , why don't you?

@Oneliner

Young people get it. They're not threatened by equality, they embrace it. Give it a go!

Even if it were true that young makes have evolved to the point none of them pose a threat to female safety or autonomy any more (ha! As if), there's still a lot of nasty sexist entitled older version males around, which means females still need rights and protections to counterbalance them.

When males and females are truly equal in practice not just in theory, then it will be fair to ignore sex. But not before.

Possibly those young people need to get a bit of life experience and start thinking about embracing equality for women with the many sex based needs that make mixed sex spaces inaccessible for them

This. How lovely of those young people to so casually toss away women’s hard fought for rights.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

a minority group they are considerably more marginalised and discriminated against Evidence please.

As everyone knows there are lies, damm lies and statistics! So purely anecdotally-a trans woman recently posted on a local tradesperson Facebook group looking for help with car servicing- this simple question prompted a pile on of (mostly) men who made no attempt to answer the question, but instead proceeded to be abusive and threatening towards the poster based solely on her trans status. I have never seen this happen to either a cis (or passing trans)woman.

Yes - I'm both, I fully and 100% support people living their lives however makes them happy, and I will call them whatever pronouns they wish to use, but I also fully believe it is not possible to change biological sex, and I worry about the impact the current trans-rights movement has on women and girls, particularly vulnerable women and girls. I don't agree with being told it isn't acceptable to believe or speak the scientific truth.

I support transwomen and find that invariably "gender critical" is just a polite word for bigot.

@DeathByWalkies

I support transwomen and find that invariably "gender critical" is just a polite word for bigot.

Then you are not listening to what gender critical people are actually saying, just hearing what your own prejudices expect to hear.

@DeathByWalkies

I support transwomen and find that invariably "gender critical" is just a polite word for bigot.

It is when the people using it decide that words mean whatever they say they mean.

8th rule of misogyny - men are whatever they say they are, women are whatever men say they are.

Yesterday I wore shorts and a football shirt, drank pints of beers and watched the football. Today I am wearing a dress, make-up and heels. I'm gender critical because I don't think I was a man yesterday not because I hate anyone.

@trockodile

"As everyone knows there are lies, damm lies and statistics! So purely anecdotally-a trans woman recently posted on a local tradesperson Facebook group looking for help with car servicing- this simple question prompted a pile on of (mostly) men who made no attempt to answer the question, but instead proceeded to be abusive and threatening towards the poster based solely on her trans status. I have never seen this happen to either a cis (or passing trans)woman."

Why would anyone feel the need to include information about their sex or gender identity when asking for help with car servicing?

@trockodile that is despicable and so sad for that transwoman, and I think a lot of the abuse trans women face is rooted in homophobia.

That’s why the whole gender identity thing doesn’t sit right with me - we are affirming the established belief (usually men or corporate giants run by men enforcing it) that boys can’t be effeminate, can’t like dolls or pink, that gay men actually must be women inside. It is insulting to both sexes! It is just sexism in my eyes plain and simple and is deeply regressive and offensive to feminism and gay people.

It is a really complex issue and in my eyes the top dogs (men) are still winning because they divide the oppressed (women, gay men and lesbians, trans people) and by letting us argue amongst ourselves the patriarchy still stands.

Being trans must be extremely painful and difficult in a sexist, patriarchal, homophobic society. I just wish we could wipe the slate clean and there be a campaign for trans spaces that don’t encroach on women’s rights. We all want safety and dignity.

I really, really hate that if I speak these views, I am seen as anti-trans and hateful. I’m really not.

And no woman ever gets abuse when posting online do they ?

No women would ever get rape or death threats for asking a simple question would they ?

Oops I am talking rubbish

I support men and women however they identify (because I am a human being and treat others as I expect to be treated) but if their inner feelings led to self harm I wouldn't affirm, in the same way I wouldn't agree with an anorexic man, woman or child, they were fat. I would want someone to do the same for me.

I wouldn't affirm a child in their identity that they were a superhero who could fly if they were on the roof preparing to jump off but I would encourage a child to use develop their imagination whilst instilling a sense of reality so they don't grow up completely miserable that every wish isn't granted, or seriously injured from a fall or deeply depressed aged 21 that the Tooth Fairy doesn't actually exist after all.

The OP said this was not a discussion but it was posted on the chat thread. Perhaps it would be better in Feminist Support? Just an observation.

Though it's clear many posters agree with the OP. Maybe the OP wanted the support for trans women to come in the form of agreement that biological sex can be changed? I don't know, the OP is long gone and I'm late to this.

Discussion around self ID on boards across Mumsnet has only highlighted and taught me about safeguarding and why we have it, and also why it's everyone's responsibility. It has also taught me about laws, why we have them, what we base them on and why we should consider the motives of those wishing to change the law (this goes for a whole lot of law reform before anyone jumps).

I have also learned a lot about sexual fetishes and 'kink shaming' and how that ties in with safeguarding and children protection, for all kinds of reasons, one being Pride that is embedded in the LGBT movement (though it began as a civil rights movement for same sex marriage and anti-discrimination law and acceptance in society) it is now a commercialised parade of 'equality', roundly rejected by many gay men and lesbian women.

If self ID supporters and proponents of the transgender ideology hadn't made demands of #NoDebate and insisted that everyone bow and repeat their mantras, that we had to sign up to one way of thinking and if not we are labelled as old fashioned, outdated, transphobic bigots who don't understand 'science' and are comparable to Nazis, I don't know, maybe we wouldn't be so divided now and maybe the backlash the LGB communities and women are facing wouldn't be so terrifying.

I think if the OP only wants responses that agree with their view then I would say Mumsnet probably isn't the right place for them as you get a plurality of views and MNHQ provide this platform with a free speech approach.

It's a shame the OP hasn't come back to engage further.

@DeathByWalkies

I support transwomen and find that invariably "gender critical" is just a polite word for bigot.

That's fine. When I see people calling GC feminists bigots I think they're credulous thickoes.

Of course women never get patronised or taken advantage of when it comes to cars (I've been asked if my husband needed to take a look when buying a car - erm no it's my car and he couldn't even drive at the time.)
How many ads state "one lady owner"?
How many garages try to charge extra or do extra work when the client is female?

@DigOutThoseLemonHandWipes

Treating everyone equally is pointless, everyone needs to be treated according to their needs. If the NHS treated everyone equally we would all get a prostate exam and a smear test.

I was thinking about this concept - it's equity not equality. Haven't seen this version and I agree too. This is the one I know.

It was only supposed to be the second picture (equality and equity). Not sure how the first joined in - perhaps it was attached to it.

Why would anyone feel the need to include information about their sex or gender identity when asking for help with car servicing?

Since it's Facebook, presumably there was a picture or a linked profile.

Abusing someone for being gender non conforming is indeed bigotry and never ok.

I note the abuse was coming from men not feminists.

No gender critical person would say being abused for not meeting gender stereotypes is ok. Rejecting gender stereotypes is kind of the whole point of being gender critical . But neither would we say that adopting female gender stereotypes is equivalent to experiencing life in a female body, and so we say that females need voices, rights and protections in their own right separate to the voices, rights and protections for trans women.

Then you are not listening to what gender critical people are actually saying, just hearing what your own prejudices expect to hear.

I have listened and I happen to disagree with you.

@trockodile

I support trans women and trans men. Generally speaking, as a minority group they are considerably more marginalised and discriminated against-i do not recognise at all this trope of trans women who are benefitting from the erosion of the rights of cis women-and yes i am cis and happy to identify as such.

In all honesty, can you explain your thinking that males should compete with females in sport now that the science is in showing the residual benefits of male puberty still give advantage.

Can you explain how allowing a male who identifies as a woman to examine a traumatised girl or woman when that victim asks for a female is benefitting that victim?

Can you tell me how females are being even adequately, let alone well represented when a supposedly sex balanced board, panel or women’s officer role is taken by a male? And on a board, the split is 75% male (and there is boards with this split and has been a past panel so we are not making things up).

To be clear - if trans people want a voice on a board, they should fight for representation as women have done. Proportional representation. Not over representation, not using a female representation position to put in place policies that don’t actually benefit females but because there is now a dramatic underrepresentation of females there, the policy gets passed.

Can you explain your thinking around these issues please? Because I don’t see how it is not an erosion of female’s rights but I am willing to try to see your point of view.

And I asked up thread, who is reinforcing your belief that there is no conflict at all? What are you reading that is giving you the evidence that supports this view.

As everyone knows there are lies, damm lies and statistics! So purely anecdotally-a trans woman recently posted on a local tradesperson Facebook group looking for help with car servicing- this simple question prompted a pile on of (mostly) men who made no attempt to answer the question, but instead proceeded to be abusive and threatening towards the poster based solely on her trans status. I have never seen this happen to either a cis (or passing trans)woman.

Sure. Discrimination happens and this is horrific. It should not be happening.

But why do you think because of this that males should be treated like females at all times, in law and sports included?

@inever that is actually the one I'd seen before but the apple tree one came up when I searched but yes it's the same thing.

@DeathByWalkies

I support transwomen and find that invariably "gender critical" is just a polite word for bigot.

The thing is, gender critical feminists have existed for decades. In fact the belief in gender as a social construct is one of the founding beliefs of modern feminism. It's not really to do with trans people at all.