Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

Just to clarify by modern feminism I mean 1970s+, Not intersectional feminism.

@DeathByWalkies

I support transwomen and find that invariably "gender critical" is just a polite word for bigot.

And it continues.

I wonder if the OP has given any thought at all to how ‘proud’ they are of ‘their side’? (I say ‘side’ because OP has indicated it is about sides, I actually don’t think it is personally) Plus no thoughtful and evidenced where relevant (and with relevant society level issues) discussion points?

OP- your ‘side’ continues to name call, to cast vile aspersions. Can you find a poster from the ‘GC side’ (again, I hate this) who is doing this?

@Oneliner

Young people get it. They're not threatened by equality, they embrace it. Give it a go!

Sticking to your name I see.

Ok. So we shouldn’t expect you to even bother reading anything posted with an open mind.

I see you also don’t see the hypocrisy in your throwing the ‘b’ word around with impunity either.

@DeathByWalkies

Then you are not listening to what gender critical people are actually saying, just hearing what your own prejudices expect to hear.

I have listened and I happen to disagree with you.

So you do think I was a man yesterday?

@DeathByWalkies

Then you are not listening to what gender critical people are actually saying, just hearing what your own prejudices expect to hear.

I have listened and I happen to disagree with you.

I am gender critical. I know myself and I know I am not a bigot.

So either you are wrong, or your idea of bigotry is quite different to mine.

A quick google for a definition of bigotry gives "a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."

That does not describe me.

I am not prejudiced against or antagonistic towards trans people just because I do not believe that innate gender, if it exists, should supercede sex in all circumstances, any more than I am not prejudiced against or antagonistic towards Jewish people because I don't believe that god, if it exists, has a chosen people who need to live by specific laws.

What is your definition of bigotry such that it includes all gender critical people?

I don't support trans people. Not anymore. They can campaign, protest and raise awareness all they want but I'd never be joining in.

@Oneliner

Young people get it. They're not threatened by equality, they embrace it. Give it a go!

Are we reading a different thread

This one is full of ‘i support transpeople’ and youre still on about equality and bigotry as if everyone had said exactly the opposite

Not just you to be fair

@TerracottaTerrapin

I don't support trans people. Not anymore. They can campaign, protest and raise awareness all they want but I'd never be joining in.

I will support trans people's rights to: Proper mental health support Mentoring and counselling To make informed choices regarding their health Protection from discrimination and homophobia. Third spaces and services tailored to their specific needs.

I won't support them in dismantling women's rights.

I do think it's very sad no trans groups are campaigning for the above. It's a reasonable thing to ask the public to get behind.
I think it's very telling some people handwave it away and still insist encroaching on women's spaces is the only solution.

[quote DigOutThoseLemonHandWipes]@inever that is actually the one I'd seen before but the apple tree one came up when I searched but yes it's the same thing.[/quote]
@DigOutThoseLemonHandwipes I like the apple tree one. I recently saw someone criticising the concept of equality and equity based on the other one and I thought oh goodness, guess we'll have to find one that isn't offensive and dissected beyond what it's meant to convey.

Hopefully, no one would begrudge people picking apples. Or perhaps they would, if the tree isn't theirs to pick from.

I forgot proportional representation not in lieu of women's representation.

Any trans people who argue against the current ideology get more hate thrown at them than GC feminist

I think it's crazy really messing with hormones, but then we do it as women with the pill or HRT. But I've only come across one TRANS women in my life, someone I worked with and I just treated them as I would anyone else. So I am supportive of transwomen. BUT I believe a women is a women and a man is a man, you can't change sex.

I support transwomen and find that invariably "gender critical" is just a polite word for bigot.

That's fine. When I see people calling GC feminists bigots I think they're credulous thickoes.

We all have our different perspectives!

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I support gender critical women.

Possibly those young people need to get a bit of life experience and start thinking about embracing equality for women with the many sex based needs that make mixed sex spaces inaccessible for them.

The thing about equality is that it's not just a pretty word that sounds nice and feels nice, it actually does have to include everyone. Not just your mates.

Indeed.

I’m not sure what the word “support” means? Support trans women in what?

I support transgender people who have had surgery and hormone treatment. I support their right to live their lives as the opposite sex.

I do not, and never will, support self ID.

I do not support parents who advocate for their child to undergo hormone treatment in an attempt to “change their sex”.

@midgedude

Any trans people who argue against the current ideology get more hate thrown at them than GC feminist

Im not sure how measurable that is. But women certainly have been doxed, threatened with rape, physically assaulted, lost their jobs, been arrested, had bomb threats levied at them for holding meetings. Funding withdrawn, public shaming. The list is endless. Its not a competition of who has had the most hate, but women have always bourne the brunt of extreme male aggression for failing to toe the line. I guess it all depends on how you define hate. Right?

women have always bourne the brunt of extreme male aggression for failing to toe the line

On what basis can you say that?

Correct, it's not a competition, so it isn't necessary to dismiss extreme male violence towards trans and especially transsexuals. It very much exists and I see it every day.

We live in a society where i understand women feel more able to report being the victim of a crime that perhaps they did in the past. I have reported several crimes and been laughed at. Had I been a natal woman I don't believe that would have been the case. I no longer report anything any more.

Whilst it's awful that you were laughed at Blue, the police have real problems with dealing with victims. No one should have to go through that.
I was attacked by a male(a mugging thankfully) and reported to the police. I was asked if I fought back. I said I did(ineffectively) the officer said I'd better hope I hadn't injured them or I'd be prosecution.
I was slight and covered in bruises, so you can imagine how.dismissive and unjust that was. So it's not just your voice that is dismissed by the authorities.
I've no doubt that trans people need protections, but it can't be at the expense of women. We aren't human shields.

I'd appreciate it if male violence on the whole would start to be looked into properly. DS is disabled and obviously vulnerability for that reason. By the time he's grown I'd like male violence to be more of a rarity so I don't have to add it to my worries.

I think the basic premise of the first question

Gender critical people don't support trans rights is fundamentally flawed

Ok, I'll change that to men harm men. And men harm women. Its the male condition. Either way, its generally men that are the cause of this. Nearly all physical violence is perpetrated by men.

You only need to look at the low stats around rape / sexual assault convictions to know that women are not taken seriously / feel able to report Blue. Many women do not bother to report these days for this very reason and how they are treated in the system.

Im not undermining your experience. Please dont make the mistake of undermining womens experiences. Its not helpful.

Despite my username I am not a TW. I support TW’s wishes to live in peace and freedom but I do not support their right to occupy women’s spaces. I do try and see both sides of this but I’ve never heard any gender non- critical POV that makes any sense. Crucially no one I have met or read has been able to answer the question ‘what makes you feel like a woman/ man’ in a way that doesn’t either refer to gender stereotypes (therefore meaningless) or biology (which makes perfect sense)

I support trans men and trans women to live life free from discrimination.

However:

My understanding of science is that you can’t change your sex.

Trans men are not men. And trans women are not women.

Trans women shouldn’t compete against women in sport.

Trans women shouldn’t have access to women only single sec spaces.

I shouldn’t be given a doctor who ‘identifies’ as a women but is actually a man, if I request a female doctor.

The TRA are pushing a very harmful view of stereotypical gender which is harmful.

Sex matters.

@DeathByWalkies

I support transwomen and find that invariably "gender critical" is just a polite word for bigot.

So this gets left up... effectively calling every poster here who has typed "I am gender critical and..."

We don't rport it. MNHQ don't delete it.

Every wondered why that might be?

I don't report it because I want everyone who reads this thread can see the truth that it isn't us GC women who name call.

And also that posts get deleted ONLY when soeone reports them. Think about why so many GC comments get deleted for stating things that are no worse than this!

Finding this thread really interesting, OP, thanks for starting it.

It's heartening to see that so many people are both supportive of transwomen and supportive of women's rights, isn't it?