Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

I support trans people. Don't be disheartened, equality will triumph.

Sorry to disagree but not quite correct.

Sex only applies after a GRC.

Other MTF trans people are protected from discrimination on the grounds of their male sex. And FTM are covered by female sex.

The protected characteristic of sex applies to everyone in the country.

Feminism is about and for women. We are allowed to have something purely for ourselves you know. It does not have to be all things for all people. As long as it's about women - that's enough.

This.

Don't be disheartened, equality will triumph.

I hope it does. Because what trans activists want, is not it.

Equality is treating people equally, all people. It's saddening to see so much fear and bigotry. But, young people give me hope. They understand the simplicity of equality. The future is looking brighter.

I support trans women. Not at the expense of women’s safety though, or being able to compete fairly in sport.

I, personally, have no idea also why feminism has now been sold as the fighting machine for any oppressed people. WTF.

Is there anything less stereotyped as being put in the position of 'mothering' the entire world?

Care about the plight of all females? YES. of course. Fight for all females, YES.

Care about the plight of all people? yes. Fight for ALL people who are oppressed? No way, get fucked, fuck off as any acca dacca fans would shout.

So, please tell me again, which feminists decided to reinforce gender stereotypes to the extreme as putting feminists being 'mothers' to all people?

@Oneliner

Equality is treating people equally, all people. It's saddening to see so much fear and bigotry. But, young people give me hope. They understand the simplicity of equality. The future is looking brighter.

The simplicity of equality requires all people to be treated with respect and included fully in society

Even women

Supporting trans rights to take away women rights is not inclusive

The only way it would work would be to pretend sex doesn't exist , which would just push sexism back behind closed doors. , ignored , accepted

@Oneliner

Equality is treating people equally, all people. It's saddening to see so much fear and bigotry. But, young people give me hope. They understand the simplicity of equality. The future is looking brighter.

Treating all people equally does not mean treating them exactly the same as everyone has different needs. A transperson is a very unique person who needs and so deserves more from the health services to feel happy and comfortable, a woman who has experienced sexual assault or rape has very unique needs, one of them being women's spaces in public areas to go about her life not feeling frightened.

When I was a young person my thinking was much simpler than this because my life experience was smaller, I grew out of it.

Equality is treating people equally, all people.

Yes. As I've said, that's not what trans activists are advocating for.

@Oneliner

Equality is treating people equally, all people. It's saddening to see so much fear and bigotry. But, young people give me hope. They understand the simplicity of equality. The future is looking brighter.

Oneliner

You are being rather disingenuous here. As a woman who has been fighting and supporting women's rights for decades, I can tell you very well that just about every woman who has posted on this thread is fighting for EQUALITY.

However, if you are someone who is happy to have a sex balanced board, or panel, or whatever, including males in the count for females you are NOT advocating for equality. And before you say if will not happen, there is already a supposedly gender balanced board that is actually 75% males. It is happening, it has already happened.

However, if you are someone who is happy for a newly transitioned male to represent females in a position set up to influence policy around female's needs (not transwomen's needs), then might I suggest that you reconsider what equality means for you, and what it means for females.

Again, there you go in your attempts to shame, denigrate and slur women who are fighting for equality and have been for decades. Maybe you can tell me what you are reading that has given you the sense of superiority that you can label people in this way?

When I was a young person my thinking was much simpler than this because my life experience was smaller, I grew out of it.

It's not the case for all people who don't see sex based oppression or consider women as equal stakeholders in decisions which affect them, but it's a big part of the problem.

It's saddening to see so much fear and bigotry.

Absolutely. We're seeing a huge upswing in misogyny with women being attacked for standing up for their own rights. In some cases women have received death threats. JKR had to engage security.

That's what you meant, right?

The poster disturbed me when they compared MN to an online INCEL forum. Never in all the threads on trans issues have I seen anyone stating they want acts of violence towards trans people.

INCELS advocate the rape and subjugation of women. All some women want on MN is women only spaces and women’s sport to remain fair towards women which means only women competing.

”Equality is treating people equally, all people.”

Indeed. But don’t labour under the misapprehension that it means treating everyone the same. Different groups have different needs, especially groups which have been historically (and currently) treated less favourably and marginalised, such as women.

It is offensive to identify into an oppressed group, because it implies it is possible to identify out of it. Women cannot identify out of the discrimination, harassment and less favourable treatment we suffer because of our sex. and these cannot be measured, noticed, addressed and prevented if we pretend sex doesn’t exist.

Trans people are clearly also marginalised, discriminated against and harassed because of their trans status and because they don’t conform to gender expectations. I would be quite happy to see trans-specific initiatives to improve representation, facilities and support for trans people. But removing those facilities and support from another protected group isn’t the way to do it.

@Auntienumber8

The poster disturbed me when they compared MN to an online INCEL forum. Never in all the threads on trans issues have I seen anyone stating they want acts of violence towards trans people.

INCELS advocate the rape and subjugation of women. All some women want on MN is women only spaces and women’s sport to remain fair towards women which means only women competing.

It's a combination of goady, projection and DARVO. We all know the rape and death threats, entitlement to something they can't have, and refusal to accept personal boundaries are a one way street.

So as far as I can see, not one person who believes there are conflicts between the rights of women and girls and trans rights has name called or drawn rather incredible, vile comparisons. Yet, this behaviour has continued.

Those who have implied that the OP was merely ‘trying to have a conversation’ are also disingenuous because the OP resorted to it very quickly.

I think those reading along with this thread can see it quite clearly too.

@flowery

”Equality is treating people equally, all people.”

Indeed. But don’t labour under the misapprehension that it means treating everyone the same. Different groups have different needs, especially groups which have been historically (and currently) treated less favourably and marginalised, such as women.

It is offensive to identify into an oppressed group, because it implies it is possible to identify out of it. Women cannot identify out of the discrimination, harassment and less favourable treatment we suffer because of our sex. and these cannot be measured, noticed, addressed and prevented if we pretend sex doesn’t exist.

Trans people are clearly also marginalised, discriminated against and harassed because of their trans status and because they don’t conform to gender expectations. I would be quite happy to see trans-specific initiatives to improve representation, facilities and support for trans people. But removing those facilities and support from another protected group isn’t the way to do it.

Yes.

Me too @ShirleyPhallus

Young people get it. They're not threatened by equality, they embrace it. Give it a go!

@Oneliner

Young people get it. They're not threatened by equality, they embrace it. Give it a go!

Love to. Once TRAs start campaigning for that rather than for women to lose rights to fair sport and suitable services for their sex, I’ll be right there.

@Oneliner

Equality is treating people equally, all people. It's saddening to see so much fear and bigotry. But, young people give me hope. They understand the simplicity of equality. The future is looking brighter.

11th rule of misogyny - basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men’s feelings.

Women SEE what men do to them on a daily basis. There is NO equality in that. When men are raped, beaten and killed by women on a daily basis then we’ll have equality. Until then women need single sex spaces and single sex provision for healthcare, prisons and refuges BECAUSE MALE VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND GIRLS IS A PROBLEM.

Allowing the foxes into the hen house is not equality, it’s madness.

I support trans women and trans men. Generally speaking, as a minority group they are considerably more marginalised and discriminated against-i do not recognise at all this trope of trans women who are benefitting from the erosion of the rights of cis women-and yes i am cis and happy to identify as such.

a minority group they are considerably more marginalised and discriminated against
Evidence please.

We want equality

We just think your idea of equality looks a lot more like a pyramid with women at the bottom again

We want equality for all

Not just trans people

We want equality.

For all

What do you think you mean by equality ?

It doesn't mean ignoring differences, it means seeing them, respecting them and making sure that those differences don't lead to disadvantage