Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

@BlueLipstickRocks

I support trans women. I think if I were trans and I had went through the massive process of gender reassignment and so on I'd actually be quite pissed off that there are men, with no intention of actually going through the various procedures of transitioning, declaring that they are trans women and should be accepted as women.

Pissed is an understatement.....

Yes I do feel for you @BlueLipstickRocks I worked in post op surgical ward specialising in reassignment for a while - and cared for men and women post op, and it’s a brutal process to go through. I spent time talking with people there just to be a listening, compassionate ear. The process just to get there. The realities of the physical surgery. It made me think that whatever had left each person here, they did not choose this lightly. I thought everyone was incredibly brave.

Had led… sorry… not left

@OhRene

I support transwomen.

I also support women's rights and the rights to single sex safe spaces.

I do not support self ID.

I do not support pre (or let's face it, 'never will' Op because they still love their penis) Operative transwomen being in female only spaces.

Post op TW I don't have much issue with them being in female spaces.

Fact is though, TWATW and they should be proud of that.

I do not support calling lesbians bigots, transphobes and TERFS because they do not wish to date TW.

👏🏼 👏🏼.

I don't think anyone on here doesn't support trans women

I support Tranwomen, I support Transmen. I believe everyone should wear whatever they want, use whatever name they want and live a life free from fear and harassment.
I believe human sex is binary and you can't change sex.
I believe there are places functioning pensises do not belong, there are women's spaces and services for a very good reason.
I believe correct, simple language is important and that if women can not be named they can't be defined and therefore cannot be protected.
I believe sport (with a few exceptions such as equestrian events and the "game sports" such as darts) has to be segregated by sex.
I believe gender stereotypes types are damaging.

@DigOutThoseLemonHandWipes

I support Tranwomen, I support Transmen. I believe everyone should wear whatever they want, use whatever name they want and live a life free from fear and harassment. I believe human sex is binary and you can't change sex. I believe there are places functioning pensises do not belong, there are women's spaces and services for a very good reason. I believe correct, simple language is important and that if women can not be named they can't be defined and therefore cannot be protected. I believe sport (with a few exceptions such as equestrian events and the "game sports" such as darts) has to be segregated by sex. I believe gender stereotypes types are damaging.

👏🏼

@DigOutThoseLemonHandWipes

I support Tranwomen, I support Transmen. I believe everyone should wear whatever they want, use whatever name they want and live a life free from fear and harassment. I believe human sex is binary and you can't change sex. I believe there are places functioning pensises do not belong, there are women's spaces and services for a very good reason. I believe correct, simple language is important and that if women can not be named they can't be defined and therefore cannot be protected. I believe sport (with a few exceptions such as equestrian events and the "game sports" such as darts) has to be segregated by sex. I believe gender stereotypes types are damaging.

Yes!

Perhaps if the OP hadn't fundamentally misrepresented GC women by implying that we don't support trans people, she may have had the thread she wanted. Feel free to start a thread for people who don't believe biological sex is real. I'm happy to keep off that.

Yes, I think the tone of the OP is the problem. It's completely unnecessary if a good faith discussion is what was wanted.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Perhaps if the OP hadn't fundamentally misrepresented GC women by implying that we don't support trans people, she may have had the thread she wanted. Feel free to start a thread for people who don't believe biological sex is real. I'm happy to keep off that.

Yes, I think the tone of the OP is the problem. It's completely unnecessary if a good faith discussion is what was wanted.

Yes, I agree too.

@greenluna

I fully support all trans people. I am disgusted by some of the transphobia that goes on here.

Wow, you support the trans woman that sued a load of under privileged Sikh women because they didn't feel qualified to wax her testicles, and was openly racist about it? The judge said she "has a grievance against certain ethnic and cultural groups ... which she perceives are failing to assimilate effectively ...These complaints are one way in which she is attempting to make this point and punish members of these groups."

You 'fully support' them?

(Nb for the hard of thinking: I'm not "trying to say" that all trans women are racist, or Canadian, or anything like that. I'm just hoping we can get past banal kind-sounding generalisations and actually state what we mean a bit more accurately and, well, meaningfully. )

I think the term "transphobia" has become so over-used, that it has lost almost all sensible meaning.

@BlueLipstickRocks - you're not a transphobe - you're a self-IDphobe. A TRA-phobe.

And when "transphobia" is used to mean "agree with everything I say and want or else you are transphobic" then it is utterly meaningless, and just displays pure narcissism when used in that way.

Regarding the make up situation - make-up that is at normal levels, understated, used like most women use it every day, I think is fine and is in no way "woman face". I was a teen in the 80s - lots of boys wore make up because it was the era for it (and since), especially the goths and those who followed the "new romantic" phase. Make up is not "gendered" (or "sexed" for that matter) - but when men who are very obviously male, put a streak of bright lipstick on, virulent eyeshadow and etc. and then demand they must be treated as a woman, THAT is what is meant by "woman face" to me.
Make up has never been the sole province of women - men have used it for centuries too, on and off - but it's HOW it's used that becomes the problem.

I appreciate BlueLipstickRocks' input on this thread - it does just show that the TRAs do not have the support of the whole "trans community" and equally that the TRAs do not support the whole "trans community" (which is becoming so diverse as to also become almost meaningless).

Can you give examples of bullying? You stated you only wanted to hear from people who agree with you- that as a GC female no one would and they'd be mean. The only one being exclusionary and asking for only views they agree with......is you. GC does not mean anti TW- I think maybe you've got yourself mixed up in the negative rhetoric and need to actually read posts- instead of trying to cause trouble where there is none.

(Nb for the hard of thinking: I'm not "trying to say" that all trans women are racist, or Canadian, or anything like that. I'm just hoping we can get past banal kind-sounding generalisations and actually state what we mean a bit more accurately and, well, meaningfully. )

I entirely agree with this.

The use of "transwomen" as a single blanket entity is unhelpful and to me is offensive. To call me "transwoman" rather than "transsexual" is to classify me alongside transvestism, drag queens and all the other entities under the Stonewall farcical umbrella.

You cannot accurately make statements about such a diverse umbrella.

We need statistics that separate out post op v pre op but that's never going to happen. The trans umbrella always was validated using transsexuals and intersex as their trojan horse.

I think you are right there is a case to consider transsexual separate from transgender and that should be based on data

Anecdotally , I have found ( very small samples irl!) transsexual less likely to demand full access to all women's spaces and wonder if that is in part due to any mental health support they receive ?

I also think that such radical surgery should be a last resort for problems that cannot be solved through therapy or time , & not for children

Anecdotally , I have found ( very small samples irl!) transsexual less likely to demand full access to all women's spaces and wonder if that is in part due to any mental health support they receive ?

I suspect its more that the modern ideology sees so many pushing for access and being so vocal about it. For someone who is transsexual we just want a quite life and to integrate back into society.

I also think that such radical surgery should be a last resort for problems that cannot be solved through therapy or time , & not for children

I entirely agree. The impact of hormones and the nature of the surgery is being trivialised far too much and its been touted as some utopian solution to life. It most certainly is not.

As to children I find what we are doing disgusting. Being trans should never be blindly validated. We cannot ignore that trans identities are linked to peer pressure, trauma, autism and social contagion. If someone goes to a doctor with an ingrown toenail and asks for their leg to be amputated I would expect the doctor to identify the problem and treat based on need not desire.

Perhaps all this thread has shown is that there is a group of people who feel they are so liberal and progressive that they truly believe that anyone’s desires should be treated as acceptable.

And any person who sees that there are issues and potential conflicts should be treated with derision.

My question to the posters, as well as the OP, chiming in to deride and shame anyone they feel is, what did we have upthread, ‘a GC’, why DO you have this impression you are the majority?

Is it because when you say women who believe that sex cannot change and is sometimes important to be noted are hateful, you are simply repeating someone else’s intellectual handiwork?

Is it because you are heavily invested because of a loved one who is trans and believes they should be only ever considered as the opposite sex regardless of any harm that causes to other people?

I am trying to work out what is bolstering people’s belief that women who simply won’t fall into line and state mantras, are to be feared. Or, could it be that despite all the falsehoods around ‘the extreme minority’, people are beginning to work out that whoever is telling them this is actually projecting their own understanding. It has and can be proven that the majority of people in the UK do not think humans can actually change sex and they then agree that is important to recognise sex for some decisions.

What are you reading that makes you feel that you can treat anyone who disagrees with you with so much derision? That immediately someone disagrees you say you are being bullied? That you can pronounce women disagreeing with you as being the same as incels?

And as stonewall did two weeks ago, anti-semites?

What actual facts and studies are you reading that you feel gives you that moral high ground? Because I like to read widely and around both sides of the argument and I would like to read it too.

Because it must be most compelling from the looks of this thread and all the others where people pop on make a wild statement about transphobia, hate and such. It must also state that you should never provide any support outside your emotive statements to back up those statements.

So, please share what you are reading as I want to read it too.

@Lonel

Some men become teachers to get access to kids. Should we stop men becoming teachers because of a few bad ones? What are you on about? Male teachers aren't allowed to use the toilets or shower and change with girls! That is where the safeguarding comes in. Are you saying that TW should not be treated like everyone else? If so, why? I think they are human beings - most are lovely some are not. It's actually pretty dehumanising to suggesst that they should be treated differently to everyone else.

I work in a school and that is NOT where safeguarding comes in. Safeguarding comes in before an adult is even through the door. You can be well known in the local community (small rural town), the mother of a member of staff and the grandmother of a student and you will still not be allowed to be alone with a child in a corridor, never mind in an actual room, until a government check has been run on you and the school has your name and address on file. Real example, BTW.

If we don't allow someone's rather frail 75 yr old gran to be alone with a child in a school corridor without complex checks, why should we allow any man who says he's a woman access to women's toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges and sports? To say that shit happens is no defence: we should be trying to stop it from happening.

Hence risk assessments and safeguarding.

Great post, Helleofabore. Yes I'd like to see the evidence that has people so very convinced too.

I support trans women and men. I took part in an unconscious bias test about trans people.

My result shows that I actually have a slight preference for trans people.

Trans men and trans women deserve peace, healthcare, safe housing, jobs, safe lives, good relationships. They are no different from any other human in all these regards. Every human deserves and is entitled to human rights.

Trans people are protected by at least 2 protected characteristics (sex and gender reassignment), maybe more depending on their individual circumstances

I also believe that sex matters politically and personally.

It strikes me that feminists having to restate again and again that they do not hate or dislike trans people is very similar to having to restate that they do not hate or dislike men.

Feminism is about and for women. We are allowed to have something purely for ourselves you know. It does not have to be all things for all people. As long as it's about women - that's enough.

hellibore I’ve wondered this too. I’ve never said anything Re transpeoples’ rights than that they have them, must have them and that they (rights) should be protected. I’ve had abuse, seen others with death threats, loss of employment etc for then going on to say women’s’ rights matter too and must not be eroded.
I’m just bewildered at the hatred shown to women who say this when none, absolutely none, has gone the other way - quite the opposite.

Trans people are protected by at least 2 protected characteristics (sex and gender reassignment), maybe more depending on their individual circumstances

Sorry to disagree but not quite correct.

Sex only applies after a GRC.

Gender Reassignment is not gender identity. Many trans people are not protected.

Sex discrimination protects everyone. Everyone has a sex and they are protected from discrimination on the basis of it.

Sex discrimination protects everyone. Everyone has a sex and they are protected from discrimination on the basis of it.

To clarify what I should have said was that a trans person is not protected under the sex they identify as until after a GRC.