Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

People can call themselves anything they wish, but an adult can transition but never be.
The judge said so. In court. And of.

The judge said no such thing. The ruling was about the right to hold a certain position not about the validity of that position. The ruling was very clear that it refused to be drawn into doing so.

Yes, there are feminist critiques of make up in general, of what it means to wear make up, but I have never, ever seen any feminist say that a male should NOT wear make up while arguing that women CAN/SHOULD wear make up. IE that a transwoman (I'd address you as you name yourself, Blue, except I think I might get a deletion for the word - will I? MNHQ please note, I would use 'transexual' as that is the word Blue uses) - should dress or present a certain way.

Jesus, these rules make discourse ten times harder.

I support trans women. I think if I were trans and I had went through the massive process of gender reassignment and so on I'd actually be quite pissed off that there are men, with no intention of actually going through the various procedures of transitioning, declaring that they are trans women and should be accepted as women.

Pissed is an understatement.....

Is that not kind of a huge thing to have left? So basically they are an mtf trans woman but still have a penis?

Well you'd think so wouldn't you. Seems like there's pretty much everything left. Which is the case for the majority really. 🤔

Jesus, these rules make discourse ten times harder.

Yep.

@Tistheseason17

These posts are always really interesting.

I don't think anyone can change their born genetic sex (due to chromosomes defining it) - but I do think they can change their gender.

I agree with PP re sporting events participation. (think it was sneaky)

But, I could not imagine forcing my lovely TW friend into using a male toilet because she was born male. She is definitely no longer a man (even if genetically she is male). That's how we support our trans friends.

I think where there are male perverts etc masquerading as females to gain access to female facilities these will be a very small minority - why would they bother? Perverts and paedophiles are usually people you know and it will be happening under your nose without the need for gender reassignment surgery!

My TW friend being able to use the same toilet as me really is not an issue - but she has not changed her sex - only her gender.

I also would not want your TW friend to feel uncomfortable or humiliated, I mostly like people - all of them.

For me the concern is not how likely it is that a pervert will use this as an opportunity, and it's not about thinking TW are a particular threat themselves, for me the issue is the 20% (I think, someone may correct me) of women who have experienced sexual assault or rape feeling frightened when they use a public space. Your TW friend is not a threat, she is probably nice, but when I go to the pub with my friend who was stalked by a stranger for nearly 4 years and is extremely frightened of men she doesn't know being too close to her I don't want her to be uncomfortable because she is busting and avoiding using the facilities.
For me it's because fear and feeling uncomfortable are two different things, I know that my friend absolutely WOULD NOT dare to use the public toilet if she saw your friend in there. A very small minority of people are trans compared with the number of women who would find it triggering to come out of the cubical and see someone of male appearance in the mirror opposite or the back of a person with a male physique. If transwomen can use ladies toilets where can women too frightened to use those toilets anymore go?

There has to be another solution, and unless you have had this type experience shape who you are and what situations you are willing to be in then you have no voice in this, actually I have no voice here because I mostly am relaxed around men and people who look male but we have to be good allies to everyone not just those who can make you appear bigoted if you don't blindly agree with them.

How can everyone feel happy? is what we should be asking.

I support trans women. I just don't want to share my changing rooms or bathrooms with them when I was sexually abused. I don't believe they should be in women's sports teams either, I know that that's a struggle because they don't want to be excluded but if they've been through male puberty they're at unfair advantage.

To me "woman face" is totally different to wearing a bit of concealer, mascara and lippy. Woman-face is presenting gross caricature. I have no objection to men or trans women wearing makeup I do object to gross parodies of women and offensive "fishy" comments.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Anyone here not support trans women?

Well actually me!!!!!

The transphobe in this thread is the transsexual :-)

I don't support an umbrella.
I reject gender non conformity as being the same as being transsexual.
I dont believe you can be "trans" without needing to change your body.
I object to trans being an "identity".

I could go on....

Thank you. Hope I can agree with this without being deleted.

Personally I wouldn't say this makes someone a transphobe. If it does, then I'm sorry because I don't hate transpeople nor am I afraid of them. I stand up for their rights too.

Transwomen and Transmen will pay a heavy price for the overstepping of these activists in their name, and the gaslighting they have been targetted with. They deserve better. Much better. And they are in some of the most difficult positions to stand up against it. We should have each other's backs on this.

The only support my trans friends and family want, is from people who have respect for them, their pronouns, and who aren't afraid to speak up for their rights.

None of them want anything to do with the GC crowd because the majority of the GC crowd constantly talk about bathrooms, infiltrating prisons, and how transwomen aren't women, transmen aren't men, and so on.

I live for the day I actually read a genuine comment from a GC, which comes across as respectful and sensible to the feelings and needs of everybody in the debate.

Therein is the problem - the stats use "transwomen". I would love to see studies that looked at pre hormones v post hormones and pre op post op.

You and probably every regular MN FWR poster! Wouldn’t accurate statistics and studies be a wonderful thing to have and it would make decisions much clearer. It would potentially allow for so much better understanding into what is going on.

I'm excluding the non-support for transwomen in the post I quoted. I don't mean that part, although I have to know what I'm supporting or not supporting first because it's not a blanket support. I support everyone's right to exist and live their life peacefully without encroaching on others. I support compromise that each party would be happy with.

SisterMonicaJoansHabit
It’s your lucky day then: here’s 14 pages of people (women and transwomen) saying they respect and are sensible to the feelings of transpeople. Fill your boots.

@Helleofabore

Therein is the problem - the stats use "transwomen". I would love to see studies that looked at pre hormones v post hormones and pre op post op.

You and probably every regular MN FWR poster! Wouldn’t accurate statistics and studies be a wonderful thing to have and it would make decisions much clearer. It would potentially allow for so much better understanding into what is going on.

The insistence on muddying statistics by calling transwomen women is done either out of sheer ignorance as to the consequences, or done to intentionally hide something.

I wonder which one it is...

I support transwomen.

I also support women's rights and the rights to single sex safe spaces.

I do not support self ID.

I do not support pre (or let's face it, 'never will' Op because they still love their penis) Operative transwomen being in female only spaces.

Post op TW I don't have much issue with them being in female spaces.

Fact is though, TWATW and they should be proud of that.

I do not support calling lesbians bigots, transphobes and TERFS because they do not wish to date TW.

I live for the day I actually read a genuine comment from a GC, which comes across as respectful and sensible to the feelings and needs of everybody in the debate

Seems to me that respect isn't a two way street. Your friends want women to respect transwomen, use their pronouns (even if they feel uncomfortable with that), stand up for their rights and shut up about sex segregated space.

You speak of being respectful to the feelings and needs of everyone in the debate. You've already outlined their terms and conditions. What do they plan to give back in order to be respectful to the feelings and needs of women?

Or is this just a one-way street as usual?

@SisterMonicaJoansHabit

Why wouldn't we talk about the number of transwomen in women's prisons and the concerning results of their presence there.

Do you not think this is a concern?

I live for the day I actually read a genuine comment from a GC, which comes across as respectful and sensible to the feelings and needs of everybody in the debate.

You think it's respectful and sensible to the feelings of women to be called 'a GC'?

I live for the day I actually read a genuine comment from a GC, which comes across as respectful and sensible to the feelings and needs of everybody in the debate.
I don't think many of those who support access by self-identifying trans women to toilets, prisons, sports teams etc come close to thinking of the needs of "everyone in the debate", do you?

@ArabellaScott

I live for the day I actually read a genuine comment from a GC, which comes across as respectful and sensible to the feelings and needs of everybody in the debate.

You think it's respectful and sensible to the feelings of women to be called 'a GC'?

Im also curious as to the definition of GC

It sounds like that particular poster decides who is GC or not

@Erikrie

I live for the day I actually read a genuine comment from a GC, which comes across as respectful and sensible to the feelings and needs of everybody in the debate

Seems to me that respect isn't a two way street. Your friends want women to respect transwomen, use their pronouns (even if they feel uncomfortable with that), stand up for their rights and shut up about sex segregated space.

You speak of being respectful to the feelings and needs of everyone in the debate. You've already outlined their terms and conditions. What do they plan to give back in order to be respectful to the feelings and needs of women?

Or is this just a one-way street as usual?

Perfect reply, Erikrie. As usual it is always on their terms and their terms only no consideration or respect for anyone else and their feelings and needs - same old, same old, no surprise there.

Wait

I got that wrong ‘decides who is a GC’

@ArabellaScott

I live for the day I actually read a genuine comment from a GC, which comes across as respectful and sensible to the feelings and needs of everybody in the debate.

You think it's respectful and sensible to the feelings of women to be called 'a GC'?

It's like saying "a trans"

Mm. Nice. Oozes respect.

Oh and I'm not a CIS Woman either, I liken that to getting the name Birth Mother when the Dad is shagging someone else, the person stayed the same doesn't suddenly need a prefix.

I'm with you OP.