Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

@NigellaSeed

Not to be nit picky but if you were intersex - there's no way anyone's clocking that you've got testes.

Not sure who this is to. But if you are intersex I can see why you’d need to declare.

But no I’ve had zero issues with this.

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool and anyone else who astonishingly hasn't noticed the current push by many transwomen and their allies to assert that "TWAW" logically follows that lesbians should be open to sex with transwomen otherwise they are transphobic.

Research "the cotton ceiling".

medium.com/@mirandayardley/girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-and-women-c323b4789368

terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

Anyone here not support trans women?

Well actually me!!!!!

The transphobe in this thread is the transsexual :-)

I don't support an umbrella.
I reject gender non conformity as being the same as being transsexual.
I dont believe you can be "trans" without needing to change your body.
I object to trans being an "identity".

I could go on....

I agree with that Blue.

The worst thing Stonewall did was to turn a psychological disorder into an identity. To use transsexualism and intersex as a trojan horse for "gender identity".

Very well put @BlueLipstickRocks

I think this is the heart of the problem entirely.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Anyone here not support trans women?

Well actually me!!!!!

The transphobe in this thread is the transsexual :-)

I don't support an umbrella.
I reject gender non conformity as being the same as being transsexual.
I dont believe you can be "trans" without needing to change your body.
I object to trans being an "identity".

I could go on....

If they were all like you we wouldn't have a problem...

[quote Justa47]@HermioneWeasley

I meant what I said. I think people can change sex with appropriate normal therapies and gender reassignment surgery. So people say you never can. I think that’s wrong.[/quote]
How exactly can sex be changed, when it’s based on sex chromosomes that are determined at the point of conception?
If a male doesn’t have any surgery, hormone treatment or ‘therapy’( whatever that is), then they can’t say they are a transwoman?

There's evidence of transwomen committing sexually/violent acts, just as there is evidence of men doing so.

Therein is the problem - the stats use "transwomen". I would love to see studies that looked at pre hormones v post hormones and pre op post op.

If a male doesn’t have any surgery, hormone treatment or ‘therapy’( whatever that is), then they can’t say they are a transwoman?

EXACTLY!!

I'm vegetarian. I only eat meat on Fridays.
I'm tea total. I only have one bottle of wine a week.

The word "trans" by definition is about change. A "moving across".

I fully support all trans people. I am disgusted by some of the transphobia that goes on here.

“competitive sports is a pretty stupid and male centric thing”?

So it doesn't matter if girls and women stop playing sports because they can't win, because they feel unsafe either on the pitch or in the changing room. Or because their religion or culture or personal life experiences prevent them from that type of contact with male bodied people.

So it doesn't matter if some women in the USA miss out on going to university because the scholarships intended for females are won by people who have the physical advantage of male bodies (bigger lungs, different pelvis, etc).

It doesn't matter if a woman trains and practices and makes difficult decisions to delay starting a family only to miss out on a record, a medal, a place in the team because a stronger, faster male bodied person does instead

So it doesn't matter if a woman gets hurt or killed because she is facing someone with a male body in a contact sport?

Because sport is just macho nonsense for over grown boys? So none of that matters.

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

Those two links got squashed together in my last post. I'll try again.

medium.com/@mirandayardley/girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-and-women-c323b4789368

And another.

terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

competitive sports is a pretty stupid and male centric thing

This is one of the most stupid arguments I've ever heard against keeping women's sports sex-segregated.

Unbelievable.

"I fully support all trans people. I am disgusted by some of the transphobia that goes on here*

If you support transgenderism then you don't support transsexuals.

I really don't see that much transohobia by the way.

@BlueLipstickRocks

As far as I can tell the mumsnet FWR version of supporting transwomen is - as long as they stay out of women’s sport, women’s toilets, women’s prisons, brownies, guides, WI, never use the word ‘cis’, accept that they are really male and just make-believing femaleness, accept that they are mentally ill/stupid/ don’t understand The Simple Biological Facts. Oh, and respect Jordan Peterson/Julie Burchill/Hartley-Brewer whichever Daily Mail columnist or alt-right wanker has decided to go in for trans people this week.

Having been part of several conversations on FWR that is exactly how I feel.

It feels like "I'm fine with you being transsexual just so long as you don't behave like a transsexual".

I remember on twitter a few years ago being told by someone they could accept me as transsexual but I need to stop wearing makeup and womens clothes are start dressing as a man. If I could do that I would he transsexual.

Everyone should feel completely free to wear whatever clothes they wish, make up, hairstyles, etc - I can't really fathom anyone having an issue with that, outwith some utterly sexist boors.

I would say the vast majority of feminists agree - it's sort of the whole point. To examine, analyse and dismantle sexist stereotypes.

I feel like you've really misunderstood the feminist position if this is what you think women are saying.

I feel like you've really misunderstood the feminist position if this is what you think women are saying.

Its not what I think has been said, its what's actually been said.

There is no single position representative of all women or even all feminists. I've seen every position over the years.

Well, fair enough, there are different positions within feminism. I've never, ever seen a feminist say people should or shouldn't wear make up or 'women's' clothes, though.

I've never, ever seen a feminist say people should or shouldn't wear make up or 'women's' clothes, though.

You've never seen the whole woman face argument?
Or the objections to my using makeup because it's a tool of the patriarchy used to oppress women?

@BlueLipstickRocks

I've never, ever seen a feminist say people should or shouldn't wear make up or 'women's' clothes, though.

You've never seen the whole woman face argument?
Or the objections to my using makeup because it's a tool of the patriarchy used to oppress women?

To be fair @BlueLipstickRocks, the "woman-face" argument is used to make the point that no amount of makeup, hair and heels will make a man a woman.

It's an argument to point out that transwomen are not women, transwomen are transwomen.

I've never met anyone in real life or on FWR who thinks that transwomen shouldn't be allowed to dress however they please.

If anyone did say otherwise, then yes, that is bigoted.

Wear what you want to wear, present as a woman, the point that GC feminists make is that doesn't mean someone can actually change their sex. Which is something you agree with.

I support trans women and men. However I believe that you can't change your biology. I know a mtf trans woman who just has surgery left and she says that she will never be a biological female as its just not possible.

I would imagine they dislike being told make.up. is what makes someone woman. Because that is sexist.
Both those arguments object to appropriation. It's not the wearing of make.up that is objected to- it's saying that this changes one's sex.

@BlueLipstickRocks

I've never, ever seen a feminist say people should or shouldn't wear make up or 'women's' clothes, though.

You've never seen the whole woman face argument?
Or the objections to my using makeup because it's a tool of the patriarchy used to oppress women?

I think it’s the caricature that is the issue rather just make up and clothes.

Feminists then can have an issue with this. I’m not saying this applies to all though, but the ‘woman face’ problem.

know a mtf trans woman who just has surgery left

Is that not kind of a huge thing to have left? So basically they are an mtf trans woman but still have a penis?

A Transwoman is just that a transitioned, who will never be a true woman, but wishes they could be.
A woman is and always has been a woman.
Same with males.
People can call themselves anything they wish, but an adult can transition but never be.
The judge said so. In court. And of.

I support trans women. I think if I were trans and I had went through the massive process of gender reassignment and so on I'd actually be quite pissed off that there are men, with no intention of actually going through the various procedures of transitioning, declaring that they are trans women and should be accepted as women.