Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

*However, I do not believe that the rights of trans people to live as they wish to should trump the rights of women or children to enjoy safety, privacy or dignity. I do not believe that single-sex provisions that currently exist within the law and in society generally should be removed or changed."

I entirely agree on the importance of safety, privacy and dignity for women and children. However I believe as a transsexual I am entitled to these same things.

You refer to the single sex spaces that currently exist. Sadly that is not the case. Whilst there are specific exemptions the law permits certain rights to those who identify under the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment. Furthermore the Gender Recognition Act permits a person to change legal sex as I have done.

Changes to the law are needed. Too many organisations rolled over based on bad advice from Stonewall. Factually however the current law permits me to use female toilets and changing rooms. Single sex means "single legal sex" not "single biological sex".

@ErykahBaddy

I love that someone said they don't care about males partaking in female sports because they think competitive sport is dumb.

You get some real weirdos on the internet.

The poster that thought “competitive sports s a pretty stupid and male centric thing”?

I think the word you’re looking for is misogynist rather than weirdo.

@MarshaBradyo - I think cis is useful. If I talk to a person on the street - I am a woman. If I'm having a medical emergency - I would tell the paramedic I'm a cis woman - so they know I have a uterus/cervix etc - if they needed to know.

Similarly a woman is a woman - but in a medical emergency she may need to point out she's trans

But generally I just like to say woman for both.

[quote GrammarTeacher]@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman I don't think I'm outnumbered. I think many many people ignore the feminist board now which is a huge huge shame. [/quote]
@GrammarTeacher

Many people on the feminist board are waiting for you to return to this thread and explain why you claimed nobody was discussing the harassment aspect of Maya Forstater's case, when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I for one am dying to hear from you.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4268058-Heads-up-MNHQ-planning-to-create-a-sex-gender-topic-separate-from-FWR?pg=15

#sickoftheliesaboutFWR

What i find most weird is that the people who praise Maya and slate Labour esp Starmer, don't seem to realise she was fighting a tory policy plus the tories have done more to set back womens rights than anyone with cuts to womens services and diagnostics/

[quote NigellaSeed]@MarshaBradyo - I think cis is useful. If I talk to a person on the street - I am a woman. If I'm having a medical emergency - I would tell the paramedic I'm a cis woman - so they know I have a uterus/cervix etc - if they needed to know.

Similarly a woman is a woman - but in a medical emergency she may need to point out she's trans

But generally I just like to say woman for both. [/quote]
It’s up to you what you identify as, of course, so if you say that in a medical emergency that’s your call.

But I’d generally ask not to be referred to as ‘cis’ by anyone. Just woman and feminist and I’m good. I find it so offensive as a word. (Not stopping you applying it to yourself as you wish!)

She was working on the psychiatric women’s ward, single sex, and a trans women (who was obviously male and quite intimidating with it) was allowed to be admitted. There was one woman on the ward who had a horrible history of abuse and she became very distressed about this, however my nurse friend was told that she couldn’t even discuss or admit to the woman that this even was a male person, without possibly losing her job.

This is what happened to one of the victims of Stephen Wood aka Karen White, raped a woman in a locked secure psychiatric facility so badly she will never be able to have children, also raped a pregnant woman, in his own words has stated he is sexually interested in children and could abuse a child and think nothing of it. Guess where this TW was held on remand? HMP New Hall a Women's Prison with a mother and baby unit, and then guess what he did when he was there, he committed four sexual assaults against the female prisoners there. Since conviction he is in the male estate but is angling for return to the female prison estate and, again, in his words I’m longing for the day the system sends me - more like forced to send me - to a female prison again.

That is where blind belief and mantra chanting leads, everyone saying TW are women happy with this?

I fully accept Stephen Wood/Karen White is not representative of all TW, equally neither is Jon Warboys representative of all males. One Stepehen Wood/Karen White incident is one too many.

Single sex spaces and services are there for damn good safeguarding reasons.

@BlueLipstickRocks

*However, I do not believe that the rights of trans people to live as they wish to should trump the rights of women or children to enjoy safety, privacy or dignity. I do not believe that single-sex provisions that currently exist within the law and in society generally should be removed or changed."

I entirely agree on the importance of safety, privacy and dignity for women and children. However I believe as a transsexual I am entitled to these same things.

You refer to the single sex spaces that currently exist. Sadly that is not the case. Whilst there are specific exemptions the law permits certain rights to those who identify under the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment. Furthermore the Gender Recognition Act permits a person to change legal sex as I have done.

Changes to the law are needed. Too many organisations rolled over based on bad advice from Stonewall. Factually however the current law permits me to use female toilets and changing rooms. Single sex means "single legal sex" not "single biological sex".

I agree this is problematic for transsexual people and passing transmen. It's an issue that needs sensitive consideration and I feel for your situation.

I agree it's not as simple as either 'side' would necessarily suggest.

Not least, because the key issue, surrounding the safety of women and girls, transwomen and transsexuals, and transmen, is the threat of MALE violence. Why is this elephant in the room being ignored by the entire TRA ideology?

Similarly a woman is a woman - but in a medical emergency she may need to point out she's trans

Very good point.

Medical disclosure is essential.

It isn't as black-and-white as declaring man or woman - there are important clinic reasons why I must be identified as a transsexual women. Long term Oestrogen and Progesterone coupled with an inability to produce Testosterone are important. To declare myself a woman could be dangerous. Equally to declare myself a man could also be dangerous.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Similarly a woman is a woman - but in a medical emergency she may need to point out she's trans

Very good point.

Medical disclosure is essential.

It isn't as black-and-white as declaring man or woman - there are important clinic reasons why I must be identified as a transsexual women. Long term Oestrogen and Progesterone coupled with an inability to produce Testosterone are important. To declare myself a woman could be dangerous. Equally to declare myself a man could also be dangerous.

That’s not true for everyone though?

I can just say woman, or nothing as it would be correctly assumed

If I'm having a medical emergency - I would tell the paramedic I'm a cis woman - so they know I have a uterus/cervix etc - if they needed to know.

There is absolutely no need to use c** in that situation. Paramedics are perfectly aware of what woman means. Putting a wholly redundant qualifier on It is completely unnecessary.

OP you can not generalise in this way. So many women support trans people. They have rights to be free from hatred and discrimination just as much as any PC group under the equalities act 2010. BUT lots of women (as seen on here and many other platforms) feel that trans peoples rights should NOT supersede womens rights. Oh and BTW free speech includes open threads on a public forum.

@orinocosfavoritecake

There are a thousand and one GC threads on mumsnet. The OP was asking for one measly thread that wasn’t all about GC - and got a GC pile-on.

She asked for a thread for women who support transwomen. Why aren't you happy that so many people have posted to say that they support transwomen? Post after post saying exactly that. It's almost like you don't want to hear it.

Perhaps if the OP hadn't fundamentally misrepresented GC women by implying that we don't support trans people, she may have had the thread she wanted. Feel free to start a thread for people who don't believe biological sex is real. I'm happy to keep off that.

*That’s not true for everyone though?

I can just say woman, or nothing as it would be correctly assumed*

Medically there are a few dividing lines that must be disclosed.

• lack of any hormonal or surgical intervention a person clearly for medical purposes us their birth sex
• pre op but on hormones...such a person is introducing cross sex hormones but still producing natal sex hormones
• post op....such a person is wholly dependent on cross sex hormones and cannot produce any sex hormones if their own.

The difference is there are large groups of self-identified transwomen and their allies saying that if lesbians don't sleep with them then they are bigoted transphobes.

Large groups of such people? Where?

Have gay men or lesbian women ever insisted that people who aren't homosexual must sleep with them or they are homophobic?

Yes, on rare occasions. I have come across such people. It's very rare: probably much rarer than straight men who assume that any woman who rejects their advances must be'frigid' or a 'man-hater'. But there are entitled people of all sexualities.

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

Well said!

@BlueLipstickRocks

*That’s not true for everyone though?

I can just say woman, or nothing as it would be correctly assumed*

Medically there are a few dividing lines that must be disclosed.

• lack of any hormonal or surgical intervention a person clearly for medical purposes us their birth sex
• pre op but on hormones...such a person is introducing cross sex hormones but still producing natal sex hormones
• post op....such a person is wholly dependent on cross sex hormones and cannot produce any sex hormones if their own.

Yes I can see why you would need to disclose

But I wouldn’t (and many others)

Not least, because the key issue, surrounding the safety of women and girls, transwomen and transsexuals, and transmen, is the threat of MALE violence.

Yes, agree, @CandyLeBonBonand apologies if my post wasn't clear @BlueLipstickRocks. I do understand the provision in law for people holding a GRC and I agree that safety is paramount.

I really despair at some of these responses. Safeguarding is everyone's business, this is what we try to promote. I'm a Social Worker and we rarely stumble across a safeguarding issue, it is reported to us; the teacher who has picked up on something that's not quite right, the friend who has seen something but they're not quite sure, the carer who spots some bruising. We often rely on the observation of others' for safeguarding investigations to start. And before anyone starts, I am not saying all trans people are perverts/abusers/insert other any other hyperbole here. I'm just worried that these cultural shifts and acceptances, which are portrayed as being kind and inclusive, are eroding the very gut instincts that often lead to us being involved.

Also, for those saying 'men will do it anyway', please understand that we have systems and boundaries in place to mitigate against risk. I really struggle to understand how someone can think that way. Can you imagine if I took that approach at work? Ah well, what's the point, abusers are going to abuse anyway....! Sorry, I'm grumpy tonight, still smarting from a shitty safeguarding case on Friday. Not sure if I'm even making sense but this idea that we need to deny reality, against our will and instincts worries me.

@jasjas1973

What i find most weird is that the people who praise Maya and slate Labour esp Starmer, don't seem to realise she was fighting a tory policy plus the tories have done more to set back womens rights than anyone with cuts to womens services and diagnostics/

What are you on about? Everyone on FWR is aware the Tories started the GRC reform discussion, and the particular Tory who's been pushing it has been discussed extensively. Many of us fought the reform bill, lobbied MPs responded to the consultations. Who do you think we thought we were writing to? The shit shows that are Labour, the LibDems and the Greens have backed up self ID publicly, None of them have the had the back of biological women. Everybody on FWR know who has been in power for the last decade + pushing cuts to services. They are a clever lot. Stop telling lies.

Noting the above comment....

As long as we continue to consider ALL trans as a single group and treat as such we will never be able to move forward.

To say that "trans people should be given x" is to condede to all identities within the umbrella.

Absolutely, @Outhere. You are spot on.

Not sure if I'm even making sense but this idea that we need to deny reality, against our will and instincts worries me.

You make perfect sense OutThere.

What i find most weird is that the people who praise Maya and slate Labour esp Starmer, don't seem to realise she was fighting a tory policy plus the tories have done more to set back womens rights than anyone with cuts to womens services and diagnostics

I'm more than aware this has taken hold under a Tory government. I'm also aware that things would be far far worse under labour. Both are shit. But labour is dangerously out of control.

Because, GC Academic whatever you mean be ‘supporting transwomen’ isn’t what the OP means by it.

As far as I can tell the mumsnet FWR version of supporting transwomen is - as long as they stay out of women’s sport, women’s toilets, women’s prisons, brownies, guides, WI, never use the word ‘cis’, accept that they are really male and just make-believing femaleness, accept that they are mentally ill/stupid/ don’t understand The Simple Biological Facts. Oh, and respect Jordan Peterson/Julie Burchill/Hartley-Brewer whichever Daily Mail columnist or alt-right wanker has decided to go in for trans people this week.

Which, fine. Have that view if you want to. Have 1001 threads where you agree with each other about how clever and tolerant and enlightened you are. But why do you all have to rush into squash any dissenting threads?