Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

I used to be fine with changing villages of lockable cubicles, but now we have smartphones and men abusing the technology, I am less so.

This was just last month.

A Peeping Tom left a 15-year-old swimmer terrified of getting changed when he used a mobile phone to film her over the top of a cubicle.Edward Smith locked himself in a neighbouring cubicle in the mixed gender changing area as a group of swimmers aged ten to 17 were ending a training session.

He waited for the swimmers to get out and then held his hand up to take photos of the naked girl, who screamed in horror when she spotted his phone.

Smith fled the changing room at the Exe Valley Leisure Centre in Tiverton but police released a grainy CCTV image which led to the 40-year-old farmer being identified and arrested.

Analysts then found images on his phone and computer which proved he had done the same thing at the same swimming pool twice before.

www.northdevongazette.co.uk/news/peeping-tom-left-girl-swimmer-scared-changing-room-7988374

Out of (genuine) interest - how do GC feminists propose "biological males" are prevented from accessing women's spaces?

Not sure why you've put "biological males" in scare quotes there, do you know what male means? I guess we would simply expect them to respect women's privacy and dignity, like we do with other males.

When people are told they must date and sleep with a person who is not of the sex that is the only requirement of their whole sexual orientation that is wrong.

When people are told they must date and sleep with a person whom THEY don't choose to date or sleep with, that is wrong.

Neither a trans person, not anyone else, has a right to force someone to sleep with them. It's called rape.

That doesn't mean that all trans people are rapists or sex pests, etc.

It's worth remembering that a lot of discrimination in the past has been based on such assumptions about whole categories of people. A lot of homophobia was and is based on the assumption that homosexuality and paedophilia are related, or at least that gays are likely to sexually harrass those of their own sex. A lot of racial segregation was justified through stereotypes about black men being 'oversexed' and ''would you want your daughter to marry one?'

Nobody is saying that they're rapists etc.

But TRAs have accused straight women/men of being transphobic when saying they wouldn't want to date a trans person that identifies as the sex the straight person is attracted to.

It's worth remembering that a lot of discrimination in the past has been based on such assumptions about whole categories of people.

But nobody is saying that trans people are a risk because they are trans. They are saying that males as a whole category are statistically more of a risk than females. This isn't prejudice but fact.

@ddl1

When people are told they must date and sleep with a person who is not of the sex that is the only requirement of their whole sexual orientation that is wrong.

When people are told they must date and sleep with a person whom THEY don't choose to date or sleep with, that is wrong.

Neither a trans person, not anyone else, has a right to force someone to sleep with them. It's called rape.

That doesn't mean that all trans people are rapists or sex pests, etc.

It's worth remembering that a lot of discrimination in the past has been based on such assumptions about whole categories of people. A lot of homophobia was and is based on the assumption that homosexuality and paedophilia are related, or at least that gays are likely to sexually harrass those of their own sex. A lot of racial segregation was justified through stereotypes about black men being 'oversexed' and ''would you want your daughter to marry one?'

The difference is there are large groups of self-identified transwomen and their allies saying that if lesbians don't sleep with them then they are bigoted transphobes.

Have gay men or lesbian women ever insisted that people who aren't homosexual must sleep with them or they are homophobic?

The difference is there are large groups of self-identified transwomen and their allies saying that if lesbians don't sleep with them then they are bigoted transphobes.

How do you know that? Large groups where have you got that information from?

Not what I am implying at all. You are just responding to my questions with further questions.. Women's spaces already are labelled as such and have been for decades. Some Transwomen use women's spaces - some of my friends are transwomen who do this. Please don't try and twist what I've said.. I can't possibly say what they would do should a separate space for them be created. At this time, they don't. I imagine some will and some won't.
Many trans women (and biological) women believe they have the right to access women's spaces once they have had surgery.

Thanks to other posters for trying to actually answer my genuine questions about this issue, grombles especially. With the certificate... How would a masculine looking woman confronted at a pool changing room prove her biological sex to a manager if someone complained she was male?

Well, they are very vocal anyway.

lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/

It is certainly only some males who are perpetuating this abuse towards lesbians.

How would a masculine looking woman confronted at a pool changing room prove her biological sex to a manager if someone complained she was male?
It is vanishingly rare to find someone who isn't trans and is mistaken for the opposite sex. Humans are extremely good at identifying sex even after surgery, let alone before. On the offchance that this happened, I would imagine that 1) as soon as they started speaking it would be clear that they are female 2) they would very likely have id that would be accepted.

@Helleofabore

Well, they are very vocal anyway.

lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/

It is certainly only some males who are perpetuating this abuse towards lesbians.

Sorry this is for @paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

paddingtonbear

She'll be getting that from the testimony of many women. You should look at the report Lesbians At Ground Zero.

New research LESBIANS AT GROUND ZERO revealed that lesbians are routinely being coerced into sexual relations with transwomen. The report includes findings of a survey which showslesbians are under huge pressure within GBT communities to accept without question that “transwoman are women.”Lesbians who responded to the survey reported a wide variety of sexual violence by transwomen, including sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape.

www.gettheloutuk.com/attachments/lesbiansatgroundzero.pdf

@Kindlynow and @LiberaceTrumpet I was like, in that I couldn’t quite see what the fuss was about. Personally I have no objection to men (trans women) using women’s toilets. I don’t mind calling someone a She. I really didn’t see the problem with changing rooms either. I feel like I support trans women 100%

However, just because WE don’t see the problem, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a problem. It’s not just our personal views. It’s other women and many of them do have legitimate reasons that are just as or more important than trans women’s reasons.

Also, let’s leave toilets and changing rooms aside for a minute. I’m still not that bothered about them to be honest.

When I began to realise that there was a problem when I went for a job, that was supposed to be actively increasing the amount of women as they were very white and male. They made a point of asking for more women to apply but the small print said that ‘anyone who identified as a woman’. For the first time I felt angry. The reason I’ve found it difficult to get into this male dominated job is because of years of privilege that males have at birth, and I don’t, and also because I have to time off for having children etc. That just didn’t seem fair. They weren’t even recording who was biologically female vs male. So in effect now have no idea of the sex make up of their business. This has far reaching effects.

The second was when my friend who was a nurse told me about an experience that left her furious. She was working on the psychiatric women’s ward, single sex, and a trans women (who was obviously male and quite intimidating with it) was allowed to be admitted. There was one woman on the ward who had a horrible history of abuse and she became very distressed about this, however my nurse friend was told that she couldn’t even discuss or admit to the woman that this even was a male person, without possibly losing her job.

Now none of the two examples above are transphobic and if anyone thinks they are - feel free to argue your point. However they made me realise that harms were being done without adequate research and discussion by the trans lobbies. If you don’t know this you haven’t looked at what’s going on. It’s not merely the toilets/changing rooms and calling someone she/he.

I also agree with @ShirleyPhallus and I think the OP is a frankly ridiculous person for thinking that people who disagree with them in any way are 'bullying and silencing' when they are stating that they support trans women Can't imagine why you didn't mention trans men. Strange, that isn't it?

The GC belief is protected and of worthy of respect in a democratic society and if you don't like that, tough.

How do you know that? Large groups where have you got that information from?

A young late teen lesbian last year declared that she was not interested in male genitals and was bullied so badly she made several distressing videos apologising.

I have seen teens tell each other in conversations I am witnessing, that it is transphobic for them, as lesbians, to not accept sex with a male. This is happening and it is wide spread across many age groups. it really doesn't take much to search it out for yourself sadly (as in, it is not hidden at all)

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

The difference is there are large groups of self-identified transwomen and their allies saying that if lesbians don't sleep with them then they are bigoted transphobes.

How do you know that? Large groups where have you got that information from?

The information is plentiful. I will try to get on the thread later to reply properly but have to log off for now.

I'll direct you to @PurgatoryOfPotholes response for now and hopefully others can chip in until I get back.

I support trans women and trans men. I'm VERY worried about the way education around this is being evolved for kids though. Kids going through puberty have enough to deal with and adding another level of uncertainty is unhelpful. The fact that that could then lead to them making an irreversible biological choice that they later regret is terrifying.
However I don't think I have any issue with the terminology 'people who menstruate' or trans women using women's' loos. It's just the normalising for children of something that actually directly relates to very few that worries me.

PurgatoryOfPotholes thank you for sending me that article I wonder if the minority of trans women who behave like this treat men the same way?

• LiberaceTrumpet

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread*

Says who?

Are you lost as this is mumsnet

Am trying to remember last time user thought could dictated what grownups can or can’t post…..never!

How do you know that? Large groups where have you got that information from?

Go on Twitter or one of the youth-oriented social media sites like Tumblr or Discord, and it is absolutely everywhere and completely routine.

Young people routinely parrot "genital preferences are transphobic"; and the idea that being a lesbian who "excludes" transwomen as sex partners is evil and bigoted. Young women are told this again and again.

@MarkRuffaloCrumble

Can I just ask what a parenting website for those who don’t believe in biological sex would look like?

AIBU - DP and I have been trying to get pregnant for 2 years no and no luck :( Doctor has said it’s because we were both born male but we both identify as female so I don’t know why it’s not working for us.

AIBU - my DP isn’t pulling their weight around the house. One of us has borne children and given up work to be home with the babies and the other one goes out to work but when they’re home they don’t do any housework. It doesn’t matter which one of us is which. Can you advise?

That made me laugh, so true

I had a conversation not so long since with a non binary person and i just had to say I really wondered how xies parents decided which was going to give birth and which continue to work. I did get a funny look, but some understanding dawned in xies face.

I absolutely support trans people. They are, quite rightly, entitled to all human rights. This does not include the rights pertaining to the sex class to which they don’t belong.
A compassionate society is capable of ensuring that all groups have facilities that ensure their rights to privacy, safety, and dignity.

What gets me is there isn’t the same big push for transmen are men.

I saw on a celebrities thread lots of men not accepting that the transman was not a man and they refused to call him so. Why is there not the same amount of pressure for men to be accepting?

I support trans women but you can't change sex and sex based protections must be kept in place

^ I totally agree

Op there is very very little support for the notion that trans women are women. Often made as a statement on social media but it’s says nothing it isn’t actually saying well they are just like other women so should be treated

You will have a some from the trans movement who truly believe this and some who are just idealistic - most of us outgrow this stage

The average person if you asked them are trans women real women they would mainly reply no as we all know their is a difference between the sexes

Strangely the only person I know who thinks trans women are women and should have rights to women’s spaces is male and also views having a relationship with a trans woman as being no different to a relationship with a woman the average heterosexual will not have this view

I support women, that include trans and cis. Nothing but love and respect from me