Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

I see what you mean but disagree. I think the OP is being goady. It smacks of "everyone who isn't a bigot, come talk to me on this thread."

I do agree partly, I just don't think OP was being goady - at least not deliberately. I think it's a case of cognitive dissonance where some people fail to realise these things can be true at the same time - some believe support the rights of Trans people and also believe in biological facts as well as sex-based rights. It really is important to make that distinction but my only issue was for posters to wait a minute, let OP get what they want to say off their chest first, iyswim. Anyway, what's done is done. If OP really wants to speak to those who believe TWAW, OP knows what to do.

If the OP starts a new thread calling for those who believe TWAW, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot barge pole.
You wouldn't - I know I wouldn't either - but I can bet some would.

I support trans people.

I do not want to share a female only space with someone who is biologically male.

@Diddumz

I support trans people.

I do not want to share a female only space with someone who is biologically male.

Ah the simplicity of this statement.

Nicely put.

[quote WoolOfBat]@bendmeoverbackwards I don’t think risk assessments allow transmen to be in male prisons.[/quote]
You are correct they don't. Funnily enough the MoJ doesn't think transmen prisoners need to be socialised with men to affirm their gender identity, whereas the opposite applies with transwomen prisoners no matter what their crimes and even though they are described in the MoJ's own words as high risk.

Another startling fact is that there don't appear to be any transmen convicted of crimes deserving a prison sentence in the UK, unlike transwomen, wonder why that could be? Wonder also why the crimes transwomen are imprisoned for are more often than not violent and involve sex offending, odd that.

You are good chat @inever

I rankle at the accusation of GC feminists lacking subtlety in their arguments and apparently being full of "rage", when such blunt statements are made like in the OP's thread title.

Tells me exactly what she thinks of GC feminists and I hope she listens to what people have said and reconsiders this.

Not one single poster has come on here to say they hate transpeople or wish their rights to be stripped from them.

Could someone please explain to me WHY the trans movement is damaging to feminism?

Fundamentally, because the belief that women have different aptitudes and appetites to men (ie gender) is one of the foundations for the oppression and disempowerment of women.

As a culture we've only started to break these gender constraints in the last fifty years or so and there is a long way still to go

Most feminists want to reduce the socially imposed differences between men and women to just what's inescapable due to biology, then put structures in place to mitigate what's left.

Trans Ideology* by definition has to reject anything based on biology and that means it has to believe men and women have different minds/characters.

So Trans Ideology at its very core requires women to accept a definition of woman that is reductive, regressive and bad for women.

*in its current form, which is not the only way things could have gone to support and accept trans people

Practically,

1. because while I'm happy to accept trans women as women socially, I don't think there's enough evidence that trans women and female people have the same challenges and social behavior to justify combining us legally or statistically

2. most of the challenges that women suffer are due to having female bodies in a male-centered society. If we say that biology isn't part of being a woman then it gets taken out of feminism despite having a far more significant impact on women's lives than whatever it is that we share with trans women.

3. defining conforming to gendered socialisation as "cis privilege" erases the truth that female socialisation is something society imposes upon us that limits and disempowers us

I know whatever I say you're all going to rip me to shreds - it's bullying behaviour. Can't you see how you're silencing other viewpoints and beliefs on this website?

OP, you've started a thread which in your title and opening sentence (1) prescribes who can and can't post on it and (2) falsely claims that gender critical people by definition cannot be supportive of trans people.

Given that you've set up your own little echo chamber with a straw man premise, it's odd that you would then accuse others of bullying when they challenge your comments. Engaging in debate isn't in itself silencing or bullying - however, your opening post seems designed to be silencing and exclusionary.

@inever

I see what you mean but disagree. I think the OP is being goady. It smacks of "everyone who isn't a bigot, come talk to me on this thread."

I do agree partly, I just don't think OP was being goady - at least not deliberately. I think it's a case of cognitive dissonance where some people fail to realise these things can be true at the same time - some believe support the rights of Trans people and also believe in biological facts as well as sex-based rights. It really is important to make that distinction but my only issue was for posters to wait a minute, let OP get what they want to say off their chest first, iyswim. Anyway, what's done is done. If OP really wants to speak to those who believe TWAW, OP knows what to do.

If the OP starts a new thread calling for those who believe TWAW, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot barge pole.
You wouldn't - I know I wouldn't either - but I can bet some would.

It's not really possible to have threads on a public forum limiting who can post. There will always be people not of the requested demographic who join in.

The only exception to that is perhaps the various support threads MN has such as cancer support or the trans widows thread. This is only made possible by the mods facilitating and removing unwelcome posts. I imagine they only have the staffing to do that on so many threads.

I think if the OP wanted to start a trans woman support or a trans families support thread in the LGBT section then MN would facilitate that to keep it a supportive environment. Anything posted elsewhere especially Chat or AIBU is just going to attract a variety of people posting.

Thank you, Grombles.

I support trans people
I also support women
I don't believe you take away a group's rights just because a tiny group want you to for their sole benefit.

I just don't think OP was being goady

And yet, they posted this

you're all going to rip me to shreds - it's bullying behaviour. Can't you see how you're silencing other viewpoints and beliefs on this website

At this point most posters were respectfully pointing out that they did support transwomen, and transmen.

and then this

The way that people here spend hours coming up with theories and conspiracies and banding together in them doesn't sit right with me. It reminds me of the way incels talk online, weirdly.

So, no bullying was occurring, just posting and then questioning the use of the emoji. And yet, this last post came about. Do you believe that the implication that women deserve that last comment? That it was not goady?

@inever

The distinction is important. The poster's thread title shows that she believes GC feminists don't support transwomen.

This argument is trotted out a lot.

I agree and accept OP was wrong there and it's important to challenge that.

I just think posters could have waited for her thread to get off the ground first before clarifying. Knowing the pattern here, I'm sure even if her title was worded right, some GC feminists would still find a way to come in and say something. It was obvious what she was looking for and those posters telling her she can't tell other posters where to post are truly being deliberately goady.

Bloody hell, Most posters by taking the title at face value and stating that they support transwomen and you're trying to argue that? Starting an argument in an empty room much?

When people are told they must date and sleep with a person who is not of the sex that is the only requirement of their whole sexual orientation that is wrong.
To call them transphobic and bully and castigate them for not wanting to enter the relationship, or to be upset when finding out at an intimate stage things were not as though, it's lying.
Yet now we are all supposed to pretend and lie to yourself, how can this ever be right.
This is why the trans movement is wrong.

You are too @GromblesOfGrimbledon.

I rankle at the accusation of GC feminists lacking subtlety in their arguments and apparently being full of "rage", when such blunt statements are made like in the OP's thread title

I'm not too sure if this is in reference to my posts or the OPs but I didn't mean to come across like GC feminists (of which, if I were to give myself a label, am one) are all full of rage and lack subtlety. That's why I qualified it to say some would still say something because we're all still humans and therefore not perfect. Because we're GC doesn't make us all reasonable all the time.

I still agree with your post and I too hope the OP and some other posters who claim 'GC feminists are against transwomen' understand that this isn't true.

Statistically which is more likely - that males commit sexual offences or females commit them? Do you really have no idea?

Does it matter its all evil and destroys lives whether it's a man or woman committing the crime. Women can also be sexual predators. The sentences handed down to pedophiles is disgusting they need longer sentences with thorough mental evaluation.

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

Statistically which is more likely - that males commit sexual offences or females commit them? Do you really have no idea?

Does it matter its all evil and destroys lives whether it's a man or woman committing the crime. Women can also be sexual predators. The sentences handed down to pedophiles is disgusting they need longer sentences with thorough mental evaluation.

It matters very much when considering how we protect people in society. These distinctions do matter.

That is why it is important to sign this petition.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/tell-ipso-we-need-truthful-crime-371

Does it matter its all evil and destroys lives whether it's a man or woman committing the crime.

Yes. Not actually the point, in safeguarding terms.

Does it matter its all evil and destroys lives whether it's a man or woman committing the crime. Women can also be sexual predators.
Of course it matters. You can't separate individuals from individuals. You can separate a group which has a higher risk of offending (males) from a group which has a higher risk of being assaulted (females). This is called safeguarding. It doesn't mean that we think all males are a risk. It means that we recognise that as a group they pose a higher risk and we try to mitigate this. This is why unisex spaces have been proved to be more dangerous for women. That this has to be explained is frankly worrying.

Not at all directed at you @inever

For those asking why the male/female distinction matters, are you all baffled as to why we have established sex-segregated spaces and rights already?

Do you think we should just abolish all sex-segregation in society?

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

Statistically which is more likely - that males commit sexual offences or females commit them? Do you really have no idea?

Does it matter its all evil and destroys lives whether it's a man or woman committing the crime. Women can also be sexual predators. The sentences handed down to pedophiles is disgusting they need longer sentences with thorough mental evaluation.

I don't see how your point is relevant...

Paddington was aking which group of people pose the greatest danger.
She never said that women posed no threat.

And paedophile sentence length is nothing to do with this thread...

I'm happy for men to done tropes that they consider to be female. I know a couple of men that now identify as women.

But that just all it is. Their perceived identity.

Doesn't make them any less human though.

@GromblesOfGrimbledon

Not at all directed at you *@inever*

OK 😊

Lonel That this has to be explained is frankly worrying.

It truly is.

Might explain why the lessons will be learnt never are.

@Diddumz

I support trans people.

I do not want to share a female only space with someone who is biologically male.

Perfect.