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Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

999 replies

LiberaceTrumpet · 13/06/2021 14:19

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

OP posts:
Motnight · 13/06/2021 17:26

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

Agree with @ShirleyPhallus
yourhairiswinterfire · 13/06/2021 17:27

I support trans women and believe that ‘gender critical’ feminists are fear mongering unnecessarily.

Can you give some examples of this ''fear mongering'' please, because as far as I can see, much of what we predicted would happen has sadly already happened. In women's toilets, in women's prisons, in hospital wards, in women's sports, in women's refuges.

We're not fear mongering, we're telling the truth.

bendmeoverbackwards · 13/06/2021 17:27

If transwomen pose a threat in female spaces, aren’t transmen also at risk in male spaces?

GromblesOfGrimbledon · 13/06/2021 17:27

@Lonel

Some men become teachers to get access to kids. Should we stop men becoming teachers because of a few bad ones? What are you on about? Male teachers aren't allowed to use the toilets or shower and change with girls! That is where the safeguarding comes in. Are you saying that TW should not be treated like everyone else? If so, why? I think they are human beings - most are lovely some are not. It's actually pretty dehumanising to suggesst that they should be treated differently to everyone else.

Mm. By that poster's logic I should ask my employer to stop all safeguarding and child protection training because "some men will always find ways to abuse women and children"

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/06/2021 17:28

Out of curiosity why are we called cis?

You don't have to be called "cis". It's a loaded, ideological term. I don't identify as "cis", and I will say so. If personal identity should be respected, I trust the same is extended to me.

inever · 13/06/2021 17:28

The distinction is important. The poster's thread title shows that she believes GC feminists don't support transwomen.

This argument is trotted out a lot.

I agree and accept OP was wrong there and it's important to challenge that.

I just think posters could have waited for her thread to get off the ground first before clarifying. Knowing the pattern here, I'm sure even if her title was worded right, some GC feminists would still find a way to come in and say something. It was obvious what she was looking for and those posters telling her she can't tell other posters where to post are truly being deliberately goady.

RedDogsBeg · 13/06/2021 17:29

@RaeRaeMama

I don't understand why some women are against trans women. To be honest I've read some of the threads and they puzzle me
For the millionth time:

Not against transwomen, for women and girls and their rights, needs, wants and wishes, for women and girls to have their rights to safety, privacy, dignity and comfort to be upheld and for the language that describes them not to be eliminated.

00100001 · 13/06/2021 17:30

@bendmeoverbackwards

If transwomen pose a threat in female spaces, aren’t transmen also at risk in male spaces?
Probably. Because they're female in a male space.

Females are at a far greater risk of danger from males.

HouseOfGoldandBones · 13/06/2021 17:30

I support transwomen, transmen, anyone who has a gender identity (whether they are trans or cis) & anyone who doesn't have a gender identity.

What I don't support is removing single-sex spaces & provisions & having all become mixed-sex.

I also don't support people who accuse others of bullying for simply expressing their opinions respectfully.

I also don't support redefining scientific realities as "beliefs" rather than facts.

paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool · 13/06/2021 17:30

Some men become teachers to get access to kids. Should we stop men becoming teachers because of a few bad ones?

Are women exempt from the above I have read a few stories about female teachers over the years and the kiddy fiddling that they are doing. The argument needs to be more balanced.

bendmeoverbackwards · 13/06/2021 17:30

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Out of curiosity why are we called cis?

You don't have to be called "cis". It's a loaded, ideological term. I don't identify as "cis", and I will say so. If personal identity should be respected, I trust the same is extended to me.

Agreed. And that is why I should be free to choose not to state my pronouns in my email signature. Fine if others choose to, I choose not to. Does that make me transphobic?
GromblesOfGrimbledon · 13/06/2021 17:31

@inever

The distinction is important. The poster's thread title shows that she believes GC feminists don't support transwomen.

This argument is trotted out a lot.

I agree and accept OP was wrong there and it's important to challenge that.

I just think posters could have waited for her thread to get off the ground first before clarifying. Knowing the pattern here, I'm sure even if her title was worded right, some GC feminists would still find a way to come in and say something. It was obvious what she was looking for and those posters telling her she can't tell other posters where to post are truly being deliberately goady.

I see what you mean but disagree. I think the OP is being goady. It smacks of "everyone who isn't a bigot, come talk to me on this thread."

If the OP starts a new thread calling for those who believe TWAW, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot barge pole.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/06/2021 17:32

Fine if others choose to, I choose not to. Does that make me transphobic?

No.

WoolOfBat · 13/06/2021 17:32

@bendmeoverbackwards I don’t think risk assessments allow transmen to be in male prisons.

bendmeoverbackwards · 13/06/2021 17:32

I did a Chemistry degree. All this talk of cis and trans is taking me back to isomers 😂😂

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/06/2021 17:32

Not against transwomen, for women and girls and their rights, needs, wants and wishes, for women and girls to have their rights to safety, privacy, dignity and comfort to be upheld and for the language that describes them not to be eliminated.

It bears repeating.

Lonel · 13/06/2021 17:33

I support trans women and believe that ‘gender critical’ feminists are fear mongering unnecessarily.
I would like to know:

  1. if you consider TW to be male and, if so,
  2. why you think they have a different pattern of offence to all other males and
  3. if that is true at what stage of transition does this diminished risk "kick in"? I think this would really help to clarify the discussion as quite frankly I don't understand if you don't agree with safeguarding at all or whether you don't agree with safeguarding for TW because it seems to me that most women on this thread see TW as real people who can be good or can be bad whereas some people seem to be saying we should never even ask them to conform to the norms that everyone else does.
Pyjamagame · 13/06/2021 17:34

I support transmen and transwomen. I do not support the loss of single sex exemptions. It is possible to be both gender critical and not an arsehole.

Lonel · 13/06/2021 17:35

Are women exempt from the above I have read a few stories about female teachers over the years and the kiddy fiddling that they are doing. The argument needs to be more balanced.
Statistically which is more likely - that males commit sexual offences or females commit them? Do you really have no idea?

misssunshine4040 · 13/06/2021 17:35

@Etceteraaah

I support trans women and feel they deserve the same right to live a happy, healthy and safe life as anyone else. I also feel sad for the trans women who are just trying to live the life they feel they want to live being lumped in with those revolting self-Id "trans" people who call themselves a woman's name and wear a bra and knickers whilst filming themselves wanking on the Internet (usually the ones who also threaten to rape any woman who objects to them being able to use female only public places. Or the ones who use the self id rules to give them self an advantage in some way).

However, I feel really disturbed that:

  1. common sense (eg. the idea that biological sex can be changed) seems to go out of the window when trans people are discussed.

  2. That I am referred to as a cis woman. I don't want to be called that. I am just a woman.

  3. That to give trans women rights always means trampling over "cis" women's rights.

  4. to point out the flaws in giving trans women the same rights as "cis" women always results in people being told they're transphobic rather than resulting in an educated discussion to find some kind of solution.

I feel very sad for the genuine transgender people (as opposed to the perverts who are taking advantage of the transgender movement) who want to live a normal life, and I feel that some kind of solution needs to be found so that women and transgender women can live harmoniously alongside each other but it can't come at the detriment of women's hard earned rights and accomplishments. It's a difficult subject and there is no easy solution.

Agree with this @Etceteraaah
00100001 · 13/06/2021 17:37

The same reason why some people are against gay people or black people or whoever.

However, you'll find that the majority aren't "against transwomen", they're against the erosion of female rights, safety and access to spaces/services/spaces. Mostly brought about because of a minority of people that abuse a system.

BiBabbles · 13/06/2021 17:37

I wish someone would set up a British parenting forum that takes a trans-inclusive stance, to be honest.

It would need to define what support and inclusive means. Even within trans communities, this can mean a wide range of things.

Also defining feminism - intersectional - as SunshineSum defined well - is one branch with some offshoots. There are dozens of feminism branches. Having a branch that you think best fits the reasons and solutions to women's oppression at this time is fine, but the others aren't nothing - they're alternative perspectives, many like radical feminism are part of history of changes in the laws around women, and still part of feminism just like Anglicans and Methodists are both part of Christianity.

The way that people here spend hours coming up with theories and conspiracies and banding together in them doesn't sit right with me. It reminds me of the way incels talk online, weirdly.

Incels spaces regularly involve discussions on intimidating women and seeking violence against others. They've been linked to attacks that have killed people.

Not seeing the similarity. I don't agree with all the main flow of trans conversations on here, but I've yet to see people glorifying those who drive vans into people.

Freedom for everyone to be whatever they want.

When I wanted to be British, having not been born that way, I had to jump through a bunch of hoops to meet the criteria including passing a test, having two people verify my character - at least one who was British and over 25, the other being a 'suitable profession', be willing to submit to multiple background checks, and affirm my allegiance to the country, the Queen, and her heirs. My wanting it - or even having spent my entire adult life here - wasn't enough. Whether I 'lived as British' or not didn't matter either, it was whether I was a good enough person who fit the criteria and able to jump through those hoops.

Even having gone through that, I'm still an immigrant. I can't be native-born unless I return to my birth country. I have all the rights and responsibilities of a native born British person, but I can't be one no matter what I want. And, no matter how much I've tried at times, I can't sound like one so every time I speak, my twang is obvious.

My older children - who are British born, but have elements of my accent - have needed support at school as the children of an immigrant even after I became a British citizen. I'd rather it wasn't needed, my children certainly don't want to need to have designated adults to discuss each time they're told they're not really British, but I'm glad the schools recognize it.

Similarly, no matter how I've felt at various times of life, I cannot be male even if I get mistaken for one occasionally. I'm glad my school growing up protected me and my male peers by ensuring I could be included in activities when there was no girl alternatives, but not alone with the boys in changing rooms, toilets, or hotel rooms and provided female staff when it was needed -- they recognized the risks no matter how I wanted to be. My wanting to be a certain way doesn't make me that way and wider systems sometimes have to recognize that for my own and others good.

Our systems have a lot of issues and there is certainly room for improvement, but freedoms come with responsibilities and we can't really work towards change without considering the latter as much if not more than the former.

00100001 · 13/06/2021 17:40

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

Some men become teachers to get access to kids. Should we stop men becoming teachers because of a few bad ones?

Are women exempt from the above I have read a few stories about female teachers over the years and the kiddy fiddling that they are doing. The argument needs to be more balanced.

I never said anything about the sex in my post about safeguarding.

Safeguarding applies to everyone.

Jaxhog · 13/06/2021 17:41

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

This is what I believe too.
MadameKali · 13/06/2021 17:41

"I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both"

Another one in agreement with @ShirleyPhallus and I'd add that the current trans movement is also damaging to people who suffer genuine dysphoria

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