Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

Damn autocorrect! I meant this slur again.

@bendmeoverbackwards

Thank you *@OvaHere*

Regarding being GC and the issue of gender in general, why is gender seen as positive thing? To me, the social construct of gender has caused nothing but problems. With the binary biological definitions of male and female it makes it clearer. And within each definition there is a huge range of different identities. Surely gender stereotypes are to blame for a lot of this? Or is that too simplistic?

Gender stereotypes are not something that 'gender critical' (as people are referred to) people are wanting to uphold at all. They want to completely abolish them. However, many other people need these stereotypes to be able to define themselves as the opposite sex. Or to put all other people into the 'binary' so they can be 'non-binary' based on these stereotypes.

It can be a very complex discussion unfortunately, and is often well worth its own thread if you have a take you want to discuss that has not been covered in any others if you do an advanced search.

Good luck. And that Break it down for me thread has brilliant links for reading to get your head around it all whatever you believe.

Wow my mentions really blew up on this thread

@Letsgetreadytocrumble

Women are always told they must curb their behaviours in order to 'keep themselves safe'. Don't walk home alone, don't get too drunk, don't walk down dark alleys, don't wear a short skirt, don't get into taxis alone, it's not safe out there, perverts on every corner etc.

But when women themselves suggest things that they feel would keep them safer, such as maintaining single sex spaces, but those suggestions might mean that certain males can't do what they want, then suddenly those women are 'paranoid' and 'bigoted'.

Women aren't allowed to think for themselves you and feminism is only OK until it starts to mean that males might not be able to do whatever they want.

Completely agree

@Lonel

Yes, but I think competitive sports s a pretty stupid and male centric thing anyway so it’s no big loss to me if they lose all interest. So female sports are "male centric"? And anything that doesn't interest you doesn't matter? What a profoundly selfish attitude.

I wish I had a pound for every time I've seen this response to the threat to women's sports. 'It doesn't matter because sport is stupid, so who cares that some women may lose out on a team place/medal/world record/scholarship they've spent their whole lives training for'.

Transmen represent no threat to male sport at all for obvious biological reasons. This could hardly be a clearer illustration of the importance and immutability of biology in the lives of each of the sexes.

Fling the doors open for them or let transgender people pee in peace?

Like the two trans influencers with many followers who on IWD this year mocked women's toilet habits and the sounds women make in the toilet? And had a right old laugh about it with their followers.

Like that peeing in peace?

Like that dignity extended to women using the toilet?

It is known to be transphobic amongst the LGBTQ+ community

If you think the "LGBTQ+ community" is basically Pink News, maybe so. But there are plenty of LGB and even T people who don't support self ID or the political land grab for women's rights.

Some of them are even Mumsnetters!

@FelicityBeedle

I support trans women and believe that ‘gender critical’ feminists are fear mongering unnecessarily. Trans women are women and are entitled to all the same facilities as AFAB women. Also using gender neutral language when talking about periods, cervices, prostates and genitalia is not an attack.

No.

No-one is 'assigned' their sex at birth.

Transwomen are not women and they are not entitled to all the same facilities as women and that is written into Law.

Gender neutral language is dehumanising, dismissive and in a number of instances downright dangerous in medical instances, too right it's an attack. I will not be reduced to my biological functions or attributes to appease anyone.

Trans women are women and are entitled to all the same facilities as AFAB women.

Why? So little critical thought, so much misplaced "kindness".

I support trans women and believe that ‘gender critical’ feminists are fear mongering unnecessarily.

Facts do not support your belief. Women are at risk when biological males are allowed to use the spaces where women are vulnerable. I do not consent to that

Trans women are women and are entitled to all the same facilities as AFAB women.

The law does not support your position on this. Transwomen are not entitled to use all the same facilities.

Also using gender neutral language when talking about periods, cervices, prostates and genitalia is not an attack.

It's dehumanising to woman. I will not use this language as it is offensive to women.

@ShirleyPhallus

Wow my mentions really blew up on this thread

Women are always told they must curb their behaviours in order to 'keep themselves safe'. Don't walk home alone, don't get too drunk, don't walk down dark alleys, don't wear a short skirt, don't get into taxis alone, it's not safe out there, perverts on every corner etc.

But when women themselves suggest things that they feel would keep them safer, such as maintaining single sex spaces, but those suggestions might mean that certain males can't do what they want, then suddenly those women are 'paranoid' and 'bigoted'.

Women aren't allowed to think for themselves you and feminism is only OK until it starts to mean that males might not be able to do whatever they want.

This.

Can I support and respect transwomen without...

1. Wanting them and their penises in the changing room with my 12-year old daughter?

2. Wanting them and their penises in the women’s wing in prison (51% of transwomen in prison in the UK are sexoffenders)

3. wanting them and their penises in shelters for women fleeting domestic abuse?

4. wanting them and their penises participating in women’s sports, especially if they insist to shower with the women? www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7811843/amp/Transgender-AFL-player-vents-fury-kicked-Australias-womens-handball-team.html

Or do I need to think all the above is ok to support transwomen?

but rise above it and leave them to their little cult

Hilarious. Try this thread in AIBU, with a poll. Or don't "intersectional" feminists bother to do them? Because they generally came out very strongly in favour of sex based rights. That's because that is the majority view.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

But, the issue remains that SOME males will use identifying as a woman to access vulnerable females. Either putting them at direct risk, or indirect risk.

Those men always have, and always will find a way to access vulnerable people.

Some men become teachers to get access to kids. Should we stop men becoming teachers because of a few bad ones?

Some men become famous to abuse others, should we cancel all famous men?

Some men deliberately get with single parents to access kids, should we stop step families?

It is such a daft argument. It really is.

Not really, because there are safeguards in place to help limit/prevent access to children in public/professional settings.

The reason those safeguards are put in place and constantly reviewed is the very real danger to children. Just because 99.9% and f people working with kids won't abuse, you have to protect them from the 0.1% that may abuse. It would be careless to have the attitude "but most won't abuse, so we don't need these safeguards".

So why can't the same logic be applied to vulnerable females? Why should females risk their safety? Why should females be the ones denied access to services/places/spaces?

There has to be a way that protect both groups of people's rights, and ensures the safety of all.

I support trans women and feel they deserve the same right to live a happy, healthy and safe life as anyone else. I also feel sad for the trans women who are just trying to live the life they feel they want to live being lumped in with those revolting self-Id "trans" people who call themselves a woman's name and wear a bra and knickers whilst filming themselves wanking on the Internet (usually the ones who also threaten to rape any woman who objects to them being able to use female only public places. Or the ones who use the self id rules to give them self an advantage in some way).

However, I feel really disturbed that:

1. common sense (eg. the idea that biological sex can be changed) seems to go out of the window when trans people are discussed.

2. That I am referred to as a cis woman. I don't want to be called that. I am just a woman.

3. That to give trans women rights always means trampling over "cis" women's rights.

4. to point out the flaws in giving trans women the same rights as "cis" women always results in people being told they're transphobic rather than resulting in an educated discussion to find some kind of solution.

I feel very sad for the genuine transgender people (as opposed to the perverts who are taking advantage of the transgender movement) who want to live a normal life, and I feel that some kind of solution needs to be found so that women and transgender women can live harmoniously alongside each other but it can't come at the detriment of women's hard earned rights and accomplishments. It's a difficult subject and there is no easy solution.

I knew GC feminists would be on this like white on rice - couldn't even wait for an hour or two for women who believe TWAW to post first before swarming in to 'defend the fort'. Goodness! Yes we know what OP meant, yes OP messed up by using the wrong words to describe what she's looking for, in which case yes you're right and I agree that we support TW but...[like we've said multiple times].

@LiberaceTrumpet, perhaps you should have asked MNHQ to change your title to "Mumsnetters who believe TWAW, please comment here" or you could start another thread with that title. That should get you the posters you're looking for [hopefully].

Unless what you really believe is that women who believe TW are not biological women don't support Transwomen - and you'll be wrong, like most posters here have already said.

I don't understand why some women are against trans women. To be honest I've read some of the threads and they puzzle me

@inever

I knew GC feminists would be on this like white on rice - couldn't even wait for an hour or two for women who believe TWAW to post first before swarming in to 'defend the fort'. Goodness! Yes we know what OP meant, yes OP messed up by using the wrong words to describe what she's looking for, in which case yes you're right and I agree that we support TW but...[like we've said multiple times].

@LiberaceTrumpet, perhaps you should have asked MNHQ to change your title to "Mumsnetters who believe TWAW, please comment here" or you could start another thread with that title. That should get you the posters you're looking for [hopefully].

Unless what you really believe is that women who believe TW are not biological women don't support Transwomen - and you'll be wrong, like most posters here have already said.

The distinction is important. The poster's thread title shows that she believes GC feminists don't support transwomen.

This argument is trotted out a lot.

Some men become teachers to get access to kids. Should we stop men becoming teachers because of a few bad ones?
What are you on about? Male teachers aren't allowed to use the toilets or shower and change with girls! That is where the safeguarding comes in. Are you saying that TW should not be treated like everyone else? If so, why? I think they are human beings - most are lovely some are not. It's actually pretty dehumanising to suggesst that they should be treated differently to everyone else.

So why can't the same logic be applied to vulnerable females? Why should females risk their safety? Why should females be the ones denied access to services/places/spaces?

We are not worthy of consideration we are merely seen as support humans and validation tools. If you doubt this read how the Ministry of Justice came to the decision that males who are violent rapists and/or paedophiles should be placed in the female prison estate if they said they were women, it was all about the men and their feelings, not once were the women considered.

Out of curiosity why are we called cis?
I have never understood why all that I know is that it came about in the 90's.

Hmmm if the thread is “everyone who believes transwomen are women post here” I suggest a quick poll to make sure that you only get the right posters OP.

Let me help.

A transwoman and a transman are stranded alone on a deserted island. A year later one of them is pregnant. Which one is that?

Everyone who says “the transwoman” is supportive to your thread and can stay. Everyone else sadly booted off. What do you think?

I don't understand why some women are against trans women.

Define "against"? I fully support their legal rights to freedom from discrimination and harassment. But I know they are male, and female people aka women and girls are also a group who need these things.