Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Just because some nefarious people find ways to do horrible things doesn't mean we fling the doors wide open for them.

Fling the doors open for them or let transgender people pee in peace?

I would hazard a guess there have been more teachers/step parents/others I mentioned upthread that have abused children than trans people have abused someone in the toilets, yet your rage is directed at the trans individuals. Again, its like your agenda is showing.

I suggest you have a listen to gender critical transpeople and hear their arguments. You clearly hold trans views as sacrosanct and have no interest in the opinions of the majority of women, so maybe you'll listen to them.

Here's a discussion to get you started with various transwomen and transmen who are concerned for women's rights:

I have no problem with calling a transgender woman a woman, or calling a transgender man a man in daily life. I do have a problem with pretending they were born women or men, or with biological sex becoming irrelevant in law because it has been redefined as purely a matter of gender identity. I do have a problem with no longer being referred to as a woman myself. Women have periods. Anyone else who is menstruating needs to see a doctor, because that is not normal for anyone who is not biologically a woman. These people may be seriously unwell. Period products are therefore designed for women - if not designed for women, they would do a very bad job. Too often women are inadvertently discriminated against, because designers have designed things for men and made the mistake of thinking they’ve made them for people, so that’s OK. We are different. If we were not different, being transgender would be meaningless anyway, because you would be wanting to identify as the same thing that you already are. Use if language is important, or we would not be having this discussion. You cannot get rid of discrimination by rendering words meaningless if genuine differences remain.

Thank you @OvaHere

Regarding being GC and the issue of gender in general, why is gender seen as positive thing? To me, the social construct of gender has caused nothing but problems. With the binary biological definitions of male and female it makes it clearer. And within each definition there is a huge range of different identities. Surely gender stereotypes are to blame for a lot of this? Or is that too simplistic?

I suggest you have a listen to gender critical transpeople and hear their arguments. You clearly hold trans views as sacrosanct and have no interest in the opinions of the majority of women, so maybe you'll listen to them.

Here's a discussion to get you started with various transwomen and transmen who are concerned for women's rights:

Thanks, I couldn't possibly have done research of my own and come to a different conclusion to you

So patronising.

I would hazard a guess there have been more I would hazard a guess there have been more teachers/step parents/others I mentioned upthread that have abused children than trans people have abused someone in the toilets, yet your rage is directed at the trans individuals. Again, its like your agenda is showing.

And if they are male teachers/step parents/others, then how many successfully do this in a public female toilet?

Have you also really not seen the latest Onlyfans and Pornhub trend of males masturbating in the female toilets? There are plenty of examples popping up everywhere, I suggest you take a look.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

No, but we do have single sex spaces in place though. To mitigate against those men having opportunities to offend.

Teachers aren’t normally asking to be in areas with females in a state of undress eg a changing room, so I don’t see that as a powerful analogy.

But for example male doctors, who do have that access, we mitigate against these risks in terms of chaperone use, protocol of not being alone in areas, background checks, sex offenders registers.

It’s not a daft argument. Women and children are still harassed/attacked by men despite safeguards. This is a real risk, one with low incidence but high impact, that needs to be acknowledged and managed - calling women transphobic isn’t a mitigation.

Let’s not forget the impact on the vast vast majority of trans women who are not in any way disrespectful or predatory but who suffer from fear driven hostility as a result of this risk NOT being tackled, and being dismissed as transphobia and TERF hysteria.

You clearly aren't on many trans kids threads very often if you haven't seen this happen.

Is it that surprising that many GC mumsnetters might not think it their place to post on individual parents' support threads? It isn't to me. It's about boundaries. A lot of women on here, particularly feminists, are very good on the subject of boundaries.

A judge has just agreed about birth gender.
Stonewall are in trouble for misleading Info to companies.
And my favourite is the Olympics are going to be fun and games, when non PC countries woman's teams are beaten by Transwoman teams.

Fling the doors open for them or let transgender people pee in peace?

Women want to pee in peace too. But trans rights activists don't care about that. Biological males in spaces where women are vulnerable puts women at risk. This is a well know fact and it's why we have sex segregated space in the first place. Not just toilets, but in prisons, hospital wards, refuges, sport. Sex segregation wasn't put in place just for fun. There's a safeguarding reason behind it. And in a world which is segregated by gender rather than sex means a very unsafe world for women and children.

I'm not surprised that you find it offensive or that it ruffles your feathers to hear women raising their voices in support of all of our hard won rights and recognition. I'm just exhausted by the attitude you and a very shouty and blinkered minority keep forcing down our throats.

We would raise our voices in support of trans folk for their own rights and recognition- in fact, many of us do. But we are constantly called bigots, transphobic or other horrible things simply for doing EXACTLY what transfolk do- insisting that our rights and our experiences and existence be protected, validated and supported.

Some women are horrified by natal males dictating to them what they can and cannot say, no matter how they see themselves. Personally, I don't like anyone dictating to me, regardless of what they have or wish they had in their pants.

Gender is clearly something that an individual decides on these days. Biological sex is not. The outward presentation of sex can be changed. Biology CANNOT. You can't suddenly say Mars is Earth and expect everyone to move there.

[quote Orf1abc]@LiberaceTrumpet You're not alone, in the general population you're in the majority. Unfortunately MN is well known for its 'tolerance' of intolerance towards trans women.[/quote]
No. Once it's made clear to people that the great majority of transwomen don't have sexual reassignment surgery, support for allowing self-identifying transwomen (ie no medical gatekeeping) into single sex spaces and services plummets. This is because the general public knows perfectly well that single sex spaces/services exist to safeguard women and children from the minority of men and boys who are sexual predators. Self-ID with no checks means no single-sex spaces/services any more. It would also be a death blow to women's sport.

How we've moved to a position where the rights and demands of a very small group of male people have been prioritised over the safeguarding of over half the population is a mystery to me, but in the UK at least the tide is now turning.

Fling the doors open for them or let transgender people pee in peace?

What exactly is meant by 'transgender people' here though? In a culture of 'self id' any man could use a female space and it would be very difficult to challenge him for fear of being labelled transphobic.

I really do find the 'look ladies, your gonna get raped anyway so we might as well do away with any sort of safeguarding that is currently in place and let anyone who wants to use your spaces - whaddaya worrying about anyway' argument really quite dumb and offensive.

I support everyone's right to dress and act as they feel comfortable. Therefore I support trans men and women.

I believe that "gender" needs to be abolished (I know that's not going to happen).

I believe I am a woman as I have XX chromosomes and that cannot be changed.

I do not think the rights of one group should come at the expense of another group who have, and continue to, fight so hard for those rights. Trans women's rights are different to women's rights. Thereby be some overlap but they should be seen as different fights because they are distinctly different groups.

Call me cynical, but I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

YY.

Not a single person has come on here to say that transpeople are dangerous predators, perverts or delusional.

Well they've certainly been called delusional on past threads that I've read.

I'm for women's spaces too, but I find many posts on this subject to be too aggressive and judgmental for me. They do get personal and they many (not all of course) don't seem supportive of trans people at all.

Fling the doors open for them or let transgender people pee in peace?

They can pee perfectly peacefully in the facilities provided for their sex, many of them do.

Two young girls in Scotland were sexually assaulted by a TW in female toilets in a supermarket, one was threatened with a knife during the incident. I bet those two young girls now feel really, really safe and comfortable accessing the toilets specifically provided for them on their own now.

I have yet to hear of any similar incidents taking place in male toilets against TW, if you have any incidents reported, tried and convicted in the UK do please share.

If trans people are not willing to access the toilets specified for their sex then they need to campaign for alternate provision.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I suggest you have a listen to gender critical transpeople and hear their arguments. You clearly hold trans views as sacrosanct and have no interest in the opinions of the majority of women, so maybe you'll listen to them.

Here's a discussion to get you started with various transwomen and transmen who are concerned for women's rights:

Thanks, I couldn't possibly have done research of my own and come to a different conclusion to you

So patronising.

So we've both done our research and come to the conclusion that transpeople deserve respect and all the human rights afforded to them like anyone else?

Except I'm of the opinion that those rights can't impinge on hard fought for women's rights.

This is distasteful to some people like yourself who say that I (and the majority of the population who hold similar views to me) am full of "rage" towards transpeople.

I think you feel sensitive about the subject for some reason. I'm happy for transpeople to do whatever they want, for anyone to do whatever they want, so long as it doesn't erode the rights of others.

It is not as simple as "pee in peace".

Look on just about any thread about a trans child and you will see numerous posters asking about where ops child goes to the toilet.

Yes. They are discussing it, with the parents. They are saying to parents that their male over the age of about 8, should respect others and use the girls toilets and change rooms. That girls and women deserve safe single sex spaces.

Your implication is that feminists are demanding genital checks at doors and that is simply not true. Most people simply ask that boundaries be respected and that respect actually goes both ways - if you are male, use the male toilets.

I too have been on threads, some the same as you, and it is those pushing the agenda that males should have access to toilets that start discussing genitals, genital checks and using the ridiculous false mantra of 'just want to pee' like that is actually all that females do in the toilets.

Most posters supporting single sex spaces rarely discuss children's genitals, because we all know that none of them have had any genital surgery so it is a ridiculous point to bring up. Just referring to their sex is enough.

@Letsgetreadytocrumble

Fling the doors open for them or let transgender people pee in peace?

What exactly is meant by 'transgender people' here though? In a culture of 'self id' any man could use a female space and it would be very difficult to challenge him for fear of being labelled transphobic.

I really do find the 'look ladies, your gonna get raped anyway so we might as well do away with any sort of safeguarding that is currently in place and let anyone who wants to use your spaces - whaddaya worrying about anyway' argument really quite dumb and offensive.

Very well said.

The really peculiar thing about the male trans activists, is they inadvertently demonstrate that they don't think false rape allegations happen.

If they did, they would want transwomen to have their own spaces to change, to use the toilet and so on, to protect them from women. Guidelines are that male health care professionals performing intimate examinations on female patients must have a female chaperone, for their own protection. Male teachers avoid being alone with female pupils, for their own protection.

But trans activists will usher transwomen into spaces with undressed women, without a care in the world.

Women are always told they must curb their behaviours in order to 'keep themselves safe'. Don't walk home alone, don't get too drunk, don't walk down dark alleys, don't wear a short skirt, don't get into taxis alone, it's not safe out there, perverts on every corner etc.

But when women themselves suggest things that they feel would keep them safer, such as maintaining single sex spaces, but those suggestions might mean that certain males can't do what they want, then suddenly those women are 'paranoid' and 'bigoted'.

Women aren't allowed to think for themselves you and feminism is only OK until it starts to mean that males might not be able to do whatever they want.

I support trans women and believe that ‘gender critical’ feminists are fear mongering unnecessarily. Trans women are women and are entitled to all the same facilities as AFAB women. Also using gender neutral language when talking about periods, cervices, prostates and genitalia is not an attack.

@Letsgetreadytocrumble

Women are always told they must curb their behaviours in order to 'keep themselves safe'. Don't walk home alone, don't get too drunk, don't walk down dark alleys, don't wear a short skirt, don't get into taxis alone, it's not safe out there, perverts on every corner etc.

But when women themselves suggest things that they feel would keep them safer, such as maintaining single sex spaces, but those suggestions might mean that certain males can't do what they want, then suddenly those women are 'paranoid' and 'bigoted'.

Women aren't allowed to think for themselves you and feminism is only OK until it starts to mean that males might not be able to do whatever they want.

Wonderful post!

You're completely right.

@SheepyToaster

You're wasting your time on mumsnet. It is known to be transphobic amongst the LGBTQ+ community and advertisers.

I'm not sure I believe you are really a trans supporter as these threads start all the time and it's just a chance for people to pitch in.

And again

@LiberaceTrumpet I agree too but honestly, it's not worth your energy, this will always happen but rise above it and leave them to their little cult