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Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

999 replies

LiberaceTrumpet · 13/06/2021 14:19

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

OP posts:
bendmeoverbackwards · 13/06/2021 16:37

Thank you @GCAcademic

DaisyWaldron · 13/06/2021 16:37

How would your mother feel about a big bearded muscular trans man in the next cubicle? Or a tall, square-jawed, muscular woman who might or might not be trans?

Whinge · 13/06/2021 16:38

@Scutterbug

I totally agree with you OP. I completely avoid any discussions as they irritate me so much!
Apart from this one? Confused
OvaHere · 13/06/2021 16:38

@bendmeoverbackwards

Could someone please explain to me WHY the trans movement is damaging to feminism?
If women/female people no longer exist as a distinct class in common language usage and in law then feminism ceases to exist.

How can you advocate for women and girls without clear definitions and the language to describe our sex, our biology and our commonly shared female experiences?

Most women don't want to be complicit in our own erasure which is why we consider gender ideology damaging.

Blibbyblobby · 13/06/2021 16:38

@Stompythedinosaur

Procreation requires a male and a female. Female brains are also generally smaller than males, as the female skull is smaller. You seem confused.

Not confused at all. You are demonstrating my point beautifully.

Bigoted people find a (true) biological fact and fixate on it as if it justifies their discriminatory beliefs. So, women having a smaller brain size doesn't actually indicate lower IQ and certainly doesn't justify paying them less in the workplace. Procreation has require sperms and eggs, but that doesn't mean being gas is unnatural and wrong.

People cannot change their genetic make-up, but that doesn't mean their perception of their gender is incorrect, or that they are expressing it in order to attack other groups of women.

Ok, let's accept firstly there really is something innate that trans women have in common with all other women but not with any men, and secondly that this something is a more appropriate(*) indicator of womanhood than the observable physical differences we've been using up til now.

That doesn't change the fact that the rights and protections that exist for women today were put in place under the old definition.

So why does it follow that changing the definition of woman automatically means the rights and protections created for one group of people, the female, need to be opened up to a different group of people, the woman-identifying? Especially since the reason women (old definition) needed these things was entirely down to their biology and the way society treated people with that biology, challenges that by definition trans women do not or only partially share?

Since those rights and protections were created under a definition of woman that literally excluded trans women, why are we now assuming they will somehow work for trans women as well?

I think it's valid and not bigoted to say that if we as a society are going to accept that trans women as women, that question needs to be answered and perhaps some changes need to be made to existing structures before self id trans women can be included.

* I chose "appropriate" here after a lot of thought. Other words could have been "real", "useful", "meaningful", "effective" but I chose not to use them because I felt they were too tied to my own beliefs about the reasons we sometimes need to differentiate between men and women. However I think it's worth flagging that behind that weasel word "appropriate" is a whole other conversation about when and why we need to identify and separate men and women in the first place, and that is probably the conversation that needs to happen before we can agree exactly what criteria should be used to do it.

GromblesOfGrimbledon · 13/06/2021 16:39

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Managers and maintenance men don't waltz into women's toilets unannounced. In public toilets there are signs put on the door saying that a male cleaner is currently working so that women can choose to wait until they are finished if they want

I'm not joking. There was a thread on here a while ago where someone was complaining there was a male cleaner in the toilets and no warning sign, and lots of people told op to wisen up he was in there to clean, just as trans people are in there to pee.

If a man wants access to vulnerable people, there are a million ways to get it.

Duly noted you didn't comment on the women who discuss the genitals and toilet habits of various ops kids. Almost like you have an agenda there.

Have a little look back and you'll see that I did, in fact, respond to you.

If a restaurant/shop/whatever don't put a sign up saying there is a male member of staff in cleaning then women have a right to complain about this. There is a reason they put signs up.

Just because some nefarious people find ways to do horrible things doesn't mean we fling the doors wide open for them.

bendmeoverbackwards · 13/06/2021 16:39

@Chosennone

Transwomen are transwomen. Women are women. Neither should be bullied, threatened or have their rights taken away from them.

I am supportive of the teens I know who are gender questioning. I know many, all biological girls, 2 in the same class. The social contagion element to this is worrying and the huge increase needs examining.

That worries me too @Chosennone
username0489 · 13/06/2021 16:40

If a man wants access to vulnerable people, there are a million ways to get it.

That's the problem, especially with self ID. Sexual predators have gained access to vulnerable women in prison and raped them because they said they were women.

Erikrie · 13/06/2021 16:40

Duly noted you didn't comment on the women who discuss the genitals and toilet habits of various ops kids. Almost like you have an agenda there.

Never seem any posts like that. Care to provide the links?

Erikrie · 13/06/2021 16:40

*seen

Helleofabore · 13/06/2021 16:40

Where is your outrage for the people on these sorts of threads who demand to know what genitals a child has and about their toilet habits? That is far creepier than anything I've ever seen a trans person do.

I have never seen anyone suggest this except for activists. It simply doesn't happen. Please show us one woman who has suggested that genitals be discussed of a child?

HangingOver · 13/06/2021 16:41

I support Trans Women and women. I would like to live in a world where trans people are treated with fairness and kindness but also with sensible, case by case, discussions about things like single sex spaces and women's sports rather than everyone perpetually going nuts at one another. And no it's not genuine trans-folk I'm wary of in same sex spaces, it's the sneaky perv-men who could pretend to be trans for an excuse to get access to women when they're vulnerable. And I don't believe it's hysterical to fear that the way some perves carry on. I don't know what the solution is and I do feel very sorry for normal trans peot just trying to live their lives.

Helleofabore · 13/06/2021 16:42

@bendmeoverbackwards

Could someone please explain to me WHY the trans movement is damaging to feminism?
Perhaps you should start a thread about this for yourself.
hetookthecorkscrewtoo · 13/06/2021 16:43

Flame me but it sounds like mansplaining to me. As a woman who has a cross dressing partner, wear what you want, act as a female, but you do not have the XX chromosome therefore you are scientifically not a woman. Do not encroach on the safe spaces so strongly fought for by our mother's and grandmother's because you feel entitled to have the only opinion you deem correct.

MouseyTheVampireSlayer · 13/06/2021 16:43

I'm the words of George RR Martin (paraphrased)
"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the trans people. But defend gay people. Show religious tolerance and understandingrl. Protect the innocent. Protect abuse victims. Believe them. Defend the weak. Safeguard children. Respect gender identity. Respect boundaries. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.

I support trans people.
But not at the expense of women and children.

paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool · 13/06/2021 16:44

I quite literally have no idea what point you're making.

You've turned it into your own thread and the op is gone. She could be bringing up a family you don't know her circumstances and she may have wanted to vent. It would have been nice to know what she wanted to talk about. Maybe she feels a lot of judgement "I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread.". Trans people are not stupid they don't need the sex talk.

NecessaryScene · 13/06/2021 16:44

How would your mother feel about a big bearded muscular trans man in the next cubicle?

Obviously women disguising themselves as men are going to be a bit initially alarming in a no-men space.

Fortunately transmen do generally have typical female builds, so are quite readily spotted for what they are after initial confusion - your petite 5'3" big-bearded muscular transman is not going to be as alarming as a 6'1" transwoman with male build.

AdjustableAssholeSettings · 13/06/2021 16:44

I agree with @ShirleyPhallus and @Nydj
@Triphazards makes a good point too.

RedDogsBeg · 13/06/2021 16:45

@Erikrie

Duly noted you didn't comment on the women who discuss the genitals and toilet habits of various ops kids. Almost like you have an agenda there.

Never seem any posts like that. Care to provide the links?

Yes I'd like to see evidence of this.
DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 13/06/2021 16:46

Just because some nefarious people find ways to do horrible things doesn't mean we fling the doors wide open for them.

Fling the doors open for them or let transgender people pee in peace?

I would hazard a guess there have been more teachers/step parents/others I mentioned upthread that have abused children than trans people have abused someone in the toilets, yet your rage is directed at the trans individuals. Again, its like your agenda is showing.

ThreeB · 13/06/2021 16:46

@bendmeoverbackwards

Could someone please explain to me WHY the trans movement is damaging to feminism?
Because it argues that the concept of gender identity is more important than biological sex.

Many feminists know that women are persecuted based on their biological sex (think FGM, missing female babies in China etc) and that biological sex is a hugely important factor in creating good policy which serves to not only protect women but also allows us to fully participate in society.

Gender identity is personal to an individual and is a fluid concept. It is impossible to write legislation based on this and it is women who would be harmed as a consequence of it being given preference.

On a tangent, the concept of an innate gender identity is hugely offensive to many women who have spent their lives trying to escape from the boundaries that gender stereptypes placed on us.

SconesJamthenCream · 13/06/2021 16:48

Another vote for @Shirleyphallus

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 13/06/2021 16:48

@GromblesOfGrimbledon

Freedom for everyone to be whatever they want.

Empty, pointless words.

It is too blanket a statement to have much meaning, I agree - BUT it is also a dangerous perspective if you take it to extremes.

What if someone wants to be a partner-beater? Is that ok? But it's what they want!
What if someone wants to be a serial killer? Is that ok? But it's what they want!
What if someone wants to be a rapist? Is that ok? But it's what they want!
What if someone wants to be a paedophile? Is that ok? But it's what they want!

There has to be some moderation of "what they want" that can be allowed.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/06/2021 16:49

@DaisyWaldron

How would your mother feel about a big bearded muscular trans man in the next cubicle? Or a tall, square-jawed, muscular woman who might or might not be trans?
My late mother never ever thought tall women were men, silly. I don't think you googled the name I mentioned. If you had, you would not have gone down the "big bearded muscular trans man road". Grin www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/there-no-legal-bars-woman-10297113

Click the link. All the most masculine transmen I have encountered would have been a lot less intimidating to her in a confined space than Alex Drummond, especially after they spoke.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 13/06/2021 16:50

Never seem any posts like that. Care to provide the links?

Look on just about any thread about a trans child and you will see numerous posters asking about where ops child goes to the toilet.

There was one within the last few weeks where the posters were arguing it was their right to know.

You clearly aren't on many trans kids threads very often if you haven't seen this happen.

It is really very bizarre that posters argue transgender people could be perverts while also thinking its their right to know about a child's genitals and toilet habits. An uncomfortable truth for some.