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Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

999 replies

LiberaceTrumpet · 13/06/2021 14:19

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

OP posts:
HowManyToes · 13/06/2021 16:28

@username0489

I support trans women and trans men and anyone struggling with their identity.

I also support the protection of single sex spaces and women's sports.

Yup
Ostryga · 13/06/2021 16:28

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

These men should not have access to women's toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges.

Cleaners, maintenence men, managers, plumbers etc... men have access to all of those places anyway.

Where is your outrage for the people on these sorts of threads who demand to know what genitals a child has and about their toilet habits? That is far creepier than anything I've ever seen a trans person do.

You can ask them to leave while you use the toilet.

Show me exactly where someone here has demanded to know what genitals a child has. I’ll wait Smile

CuriousaboutSamphire · 13/06/2021 16:28

Oh! We have a thing called safeguarding, and that's exactly what single sex spaces are all about.

Weird argument!

Tistheseason17 · 13/06/2021 16:29

These posts are always really interesting.

I don't think anyone can change their born genetic sex (due to chromosomes defining it) - but I do think they can change their gender.

I agree with PP re sporting events participation. (think it was sneaky)

But, I could not imagine forcing my lovely TW friend into using a male toilet because she was born male. She is definitely no longer a man (even if genetically she is male). That's how we support our trans friends.

I think where there are male perverts etc masquerading as females to gain access to female facilities these will be a very small minority - why would they bother? Perverts and paedophiles are usually people you know and it will be happening under your nose without the need for gender reassignment surgery!

My TW friend being able to use the same toilet as me really is not an issue - but she has not changed her sex - only her gender.

RedDogsBeg · 13/06/2021 16:30

But, the issue remains that SOME males will use identifying as a woman to access vulnerable females. Either putting them at direct risk, or indirect risk.

Those men always have, and always will find a way to access vulnerable people.

So we just throw all protection and safeguarding out of the window and mop up the damage after the fact then?

Some men become teachers to get access to kids. Should we stop men becoming teachers because of a few bad ones?

Why do you think DBS checks were introduced?

Some men become famous to abuse others, should we cancel all famous men?

Should we just make it easier for them to do so?

Some men deliberately get with single parents to access kids, should we stop step families?

You've heard of Clare's Law? Shall we ditch that?

It is such a daft argument. It really is.

The daft and offensive argument is yours, which boils down to men will rape, sexually abuse and be violent anyway so let's just provide them unfettered access to potential victims.

Safeguarding is not saying all men are rapists or violent or paedophiles or sexual abusers, it works on the basis that some are and in order to prevent the harms they will cause all are subjected equally to the same measures and restrictions.

Women and girls have the right to safety, privacy, dignity and comfort, they have a right to single sex spaces and services that cater to their needs, wants and wishes.

Lambside · 13/06/2021 16:30

"Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security"

bendmeoverbackwards · 13/06/2021 16:30

Could someone please explain to me WHY the trans movement is damaging to feminism?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/06/2021 16:30

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

These men should not have access to women's toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges.

Cleaners, maintenence men, managers, plumbers etc... men have access to all of those places anyway.

Where is your outrage for the people on these sorts of threads who demand to know what genitals a child has and about their toilet habits? That is far creepier than anything I've ever seen a trans person do.

My late mother could not and would not use a toilet if a male cleaner was in there, even if a female companion was with her.

She always checked carefully for a sign indicating a male cleaner was present.

Remembering this is why I am so concerned about self-ID proposals now. If she had walked out of the toilet to see someone like Alex Drummond, I doubt she'd have ever felt safe to use a public toilet again.

susiebluebell · 13/06/2021 16:30

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

Same here. Very much support trans people.
GromblesOfGrimbledon · 13/06/2021 16:31

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

These men should not have access to women's toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges.

Cleaners, maintenence men, managers, plumbers etc... men have access to all of those places anyway.

Where is your outrage for the people on these sorts of threads who demand to know what genitals a child has and about their toilet habits? That is far creepier than anything I've ever seen a trans person do.

You have got to be joking.

Managers and maintenance men don't waltz into women's toilets unannounced. In public toilets there are signs put on the door saying that a male cleaner is currently working so that women can choose to wait until they are finished if they want.

Erikrie · 13/06/2021 16:32

Trans people are having families together they have to be able to vent their issues with life on here. Why does every trans thread cause a stir with feminists. She is talking about trans women and posters come flying in with what about trans men. I wonder if these posters got there tips from Boris on how not to answer a question. It does come across as confrontational

Don't transmen have families too? Why only transwomen? This makes no sense.

fallfallfall · 13/06/2021 16:32

@ShirleyPhallus

Right On!

GromblesOfGrimbledon · 13/06/2021 16:33

As for this...

Where is your outrage for the people on these sorts of threads who demand to know what genitals a child has and about their toilet habits? That is far creepier than anything I've ever seen a trans person do

I haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

There are some nice Twitter feeds I could fish out for you if you're really interested in the "creepiest thing I've ever seen a trans person do" category.

Or for starters, have a nosey on Google for Jessica Yaniv and Amy Challenor.

GCAcademic · 13/06/2021 16:33

@SunshineSum

I thought intersectional feminism meant examining the various intersections of societal disadvantage that women, and specifically women, experience. Eg for disabled women it's considering the intersection of disability + being female, for women of colour it's considering the intersection of racial heritage + being female etc. But it's definitely about the female experience, just sort of looking at how other aspects of life affect it.

Is that not the case?

Yes, that is what intersectional feminism means.

However it has been hijacked by (a) men who have worked out that demanding feminism intersects with people who have penises is an excellent way to undermine women’s rights and (b) liberal feminists who think that pleasing men is empowering and can’t be bothered doing the more difficult feminist work that tackling societal disadvantage necessitates.

Helleofabore · 13/06/2021 16:33

@Kindlynow

They are a vocal minority. The feminist chat here is a complete echo chamber, unfortunately.
Perhaps you would like to check the number of posters on this thread that do not actually post in feminist chat, yet are still very much up to date on the latest news and research. There are many reasons not to post on that board.

yet, nearly every AIBU poll that is run ends up with thousands of votes (there is no where near a hundred probably regular posters in feminist chat) and those polls are typically 95%+ in support of woman retaining boundaries and rights where there is conflict.

I think your understanding of what an echo chamber is might be flawed, and that you have a bias that is not based on truth.

Gingerkittykat · 13/06/2021 16:33

@LiberaceTrumpet

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

Hide the feminism board and you will not see the majority of threads talking about gender.

Ultimately, it is up to you whether or not you stay but personally I see a lot of support and discussions which are not related to gender.

headintheproverbial · 13/06/2021 16:34

I support trans women. I also find it important to use the 'trans' part of the word.

GCAcademic · 13/06/2021 16:35

@bendmeoverbackwards

Could someone please explain to me WHY the trans movement is damaging to feminism?
@bendmeoverbackwards - this thread is a good starting point:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

yourhairiswinterfire · 13/06/2021 16:35

@Kindlynow

They are a vocal minority. The feminist chat here is a complete echo chamber, unfortunately.
Don't think so, when a feminist thread (pro-women, not anti-trans) is started in AIBU, which is a lot busier that the feminist board, the OP usually gets a lot of support. Probably why a few ask that those threads get moved (hidden away) to the feminist board...

Have to laugh at the idea that threads like the OP's don't get much support because the nasty feminists have got everyone's knees knocking, too terrified to post. Does it never occur to you that it may be because we (women who want to protect the rights of women and girls) are actually not a 'minority'?

Greenmarmalade · 13/06/2021 16:35

I wish someone would set up a British parenting forum that takes a trans-inclusive stance, to be honest

Describe what this looks like. How is it different to mumsnet?

RedDogsBeg · 13/06/2021 16:36

Cleaners, maintenence men, managers, plumbers etc... men have access to all of those places anyway.

and there is usually a damn great sign put out when male cleaners are cleaning the female toilets in order to warn of that fact? Why do you think they do that?

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 13/06/2021 16:36

Managers and maintenance men don't waltz into women's toilets unannounced. In public toilets there are signs put on the door saying that a male cleaner is currently working so that women can choose to wait until they are finished if they want

I'm not joking. There was a thread on here a while ago where someone was complaining there was a male cleaner in the toilets and no warning sign, and lots of people told op to wisen up he was in there to clean, just as trans people are in there to pee.

If a man wants access to vulnerable people, there are a million ways to get it.

Duly noted you didn't comment on the women who discuss the genitals and toilet habits of various ops kids. Almost like you have an agenda there.

bendmeoverbackwards · 13/06/2021 16:37

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g there’s no pressure to state your pronouns from HR. Some of my colleagues do, others don’t. I choose not to. But my DDs are encouraging me to do so as it normalises it.

Helleofabore · 13/06/2021 16:37

Cleaners, maintenence men, managers, plumbers etc... men have access to all of those places anyway.

And clearly announce their arrival or notify people they are there. This is another false argument.

Scutterbug · 13/06/2021 16:37

I totally agree with you OP. I completely avoid any discussions as they irritate me so much!