Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

I wouldn't know how "incels talk online" as I don't spend any time knowingly interacting with incels.
Do you?

Everyone has a right to live their lives peaceably how they want to - so long as living their life doesn't impinge on others' protected rights.

TW exist, so do TM. No one denies this. What we DO deny is that they are biologically able to change from one sex to another - that is impossible. Sex is binary, not a spectrum - intersex people do not abolish the binary in any way and should not be used to propagate a false argument that they "prove" a spectrum where none exists.

AIBU - my DP isn’t pulling their weight around the house. One of us has borne children and given up work to be home with the babies and the other one goes out to work but when they’re home they don’t do any housework. It doesn’t matter which one of us is which. Can you advise?

That sounds like perfectly normal AIBU to me.

I agree with @ShirleyPhallus

I support trans people.

Trans women are trans women
Trans men are trans men.
And all trans people need to be honest about their sex, otherwise it leads to issues with their health.

I do not believe anyone can change sex.

Transwomen are transwomen.
Women are women. Neither should be bullied, threatened or have their rights taken away from them.

I am supportive of the teens I know who are gender questioning. I know many, all biological girls, 2 in the same class. The social contagion element to this is worrying and the huge increase needs examining.

@GromblesOfGrimbledon
Exactly ! This whole "gotcha" of "if we treat TW like that then we have to treat TM like that" is rubbish. NOONE is ever going to ask for a birth certificate to use a public toilet. It is not going to be a problem for TM to use male toilets and mostly it is not going to be a problem for TW to use female toilets BUT we have to be able to challenge if we feel something is off. I have met a lot of TW who would never dream of making women feel uncomfortable but I also see a lot of "trans activists" who love the idea of making women feel scared.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

But, the issue remains that SOME males will use identifying as a woman to access vulnerable females. Either putting them at direct risk, or indirect risk.

Those men always have, and always will find a way to access vulnerable people.

Some men become teachers to get access to kids. Should we stop men becoming teachers because of a few bad ones?

Some men become famous to abuse others, should we cancel all famous men?

Some men deliberately get with single parents to access kids, should we stop step families?

It is such a daft argument. It really is.

We put limits in place to reduce the risk. It is not a daft argument in the slightest.

Intact men, however they choose to dress and however much makeup they don, pose a risk to women. These men should not have access to women's toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges.

Male and female teachers all make sure not to be alone behind closed doors with a student on their own. For their own protection against accusations as much as for the children's protection.

Society looks at risk and mitigates for it.

There is a reason women are concerned about opening the door wide for self-ID. It is being abused, and will continue to be abused.

We must keep boundaries.

They are a vocal minority. The feminist chat here is a complete echo chamber, unfortunately.

@Witchesbelazy

To me this just demonstrates the whole agree with everything or you are a hateful transphobic bigot.

I support trans people I’m not against them and I wouldn’t label myself gender critical.
However I agree with refuges , sports , prisons and changing /toilet facilities being separated by sex. It doesn’t mean I hate trans people or won’t support them. I’m just also looking at things in regards to how it impacts me and fellow women.

I agree with you @Witchesbelazy But there presents the problem of where trans women should change or use the toilet?

@LiberaceTrumpet

Why did you all come here so quickly when I asked you please not to? Are other viewpoints just not allowed on this website?

I know whatever I say you're all going to rip me to shreds - it's bullying behaviour. Can't you see how you're silencing other viewpoints and beliefs on this website?

The safety of women and girls is more important to me than other people's feelings or opinions.
The current trans movement has detrimental effects on women and girls rights, and safety.
You cannot change sex, that's a scientific fact. I do feel sorry for those with genuine dysphoria, and I hope they get the mental health treatment they deserve. They're currently being sold a lie, and that's more harmful than helpful.
But my first priority will always be the safety and rights of women and girls. Trans men are included in this sentiment.

“A lot of the conversations on this board are held about trans women, without trans women - I think that’s not ok. There is too much scaremongering.

It smacks of “I’m not transphobic, but…”

“A lot of conversations on this board are about the potential or actual conflicts between the rights for females and those of another group. A group that has their very own unique needs but not the same needs as females.

It is actually not transphobic to discuss the needs of all females as a unique sex category. Please stop implying that it is.”

Well I did say “a lot”, not “all”. I did not imply it is transphobic to talk about female biology. I just feel the tone of too many threads is full of fear and blame, and is missing trans voices.

Trans people are having families together they have to be able to vent their issues with life on here. Why does every trans thread cause a stir with feminists. She is talking about trans women and posters come flying in with what about trans men. I wonder if these posters got there tips from Boris on how not to answer a question. It does come across as confrontational.

Hello everyone. We're dropping in with a reminder that, while it's fine to disagree with other posters, we must insist on civility in the process. This includes respecting those who do not share your views and refraining from personal attacks. Please take a look at our talk guidelines and guidelines specific for sex and gender identity discussions here for more information and, as always, please do report anything you feel is breaking them. Thanks.

@Kindlynow

They are a vocal minority. The feminist chat here is a complete echo chamber, unfortunately.

The viewpoint that biological sex is real and immutable and that single sex spaces are important is a 'minority' view?

@paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool

Trans people are having families together they have to be able to vent their issues with life on here. Why does every trans thread cause a stir with feminists. She is talking about trans women and posters come flying in with what about trans men. I wonder if these posters got there tips from Boris on how not to answer a question. It does come across as confrontational.

I quite literally have no idea what point you're making.

I support trans people and non binary people.

Gender ideology campaigners and TRAs do not. They are very damaging to trans people as well as to other vulnerable and marginalised groups such as women, children, homosexuals, autistic people, people with DSD, people with learning difficulties, people for whom English is not their first language, people with dyslexia, people who have been sexually abused, de-transitioners - not an exhaustive list despite being long. They also keep trying to drag race into the mix, so pretty much every protected or vulnerable grouping is adversly affected.

Transwomen and Transmen will pay a heavy price for the overstepping of these activists in their name, and the gaslighting they have been targetted with. They deserve better. Much better. And they are in some of the most difficult positions to stand up against it. We should have each other's backs on this.

we have to be able to challenge if we feel something is off. I have met a lot of TW who would never dream of making women feel uncomfortable but I also see a lot of "trans activists" who love the idea of making women feel scared.

This with bells on it. Safeguarding for women and girls is paramount. And it does not mean we think ALL trans women are abusers. We mean Self ID, will be abused by male sex attackers, most of who will not be trans.

I thought intersectional feminism meant examining the various intersections of societal disadvantage that women, and specifically women, experience. Eg for disabled women it's considering the intersection of disability + being female, for women of colour it's considering the intersection of racial heritage + being female etc. But it's definitely about the female experience, just sort of looking at how other aspects of life affect it.

Is that not the case?

@LiberaceTrumpet

Why did you all come here so quickly when I asked you please not to? Are other viewpoints just not allowed on this website?

I know whatever I say you're all going to rip me to shreds - it's bullying behaviour. Can't you see how you're silencing other viewpoints and beliefs on this website?

I support Transwomen and transmen.

I support their right to live presenting in whatever gender they choose, I will fight and challenge hate speak about trans people and support their right to freedom from discrimination. I have nothing against any person on the basis of their bring trans.

But YOU seem to have decided what support means. I feel bullied by being called transphobic and being subjected to vicious misogynistic attacks because I also support sex based rights, reserve the right to centre my own identity in my sex, and do not believe that anyone who went through male puberty should take part in women’s sport.

But you have taken it upon yourself to decide who supports trans people and who does not.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

But, the issue remains that SOME males will use identifying as a woman to access vulnerable females. Either putting them at direct risk, or indirect risk.

Those men always have, and always will find a way to access vulnerable people.

Some men become teachers to get access to kids. Should we stop men becoming teachers because of a few bad ones?

Some men become famous to abuse others, should we cancel all famous men?

Some men deliberately get with single parents to access kids, should we stop step families?

It is such a daft argument. It really is.

Erm, no, but we shouldn't remove all the safeguarding that's in place for people in these roles either. That's what's being asked of us. This is like saying some people get burgled no matter what, so why even bother locking your doors? Some men will rape women in toilets anyway, so why not let all men in the women's toilets and let them have at it.

These men should not have access to women's toilets, changing rooms, prisons, refuges.

Cleaners, maintenence men, managers, plumbers etc... men have access to all of those places anyway.

Where is your outrage for the people on these sorts of threads who demand to know what genitals a child has and about their toilet habits? That is far creepier than anything I've ever seen a trans person do.

The "how would you feel if Buck Angel walked into the women's toilets" argument completely misses the point.

Also misses the point that Buck Angel fully acknowledges that it can be distressing for a traumatised woman to see even a transman that has developed the sex characterists of a male if they are not in a position to know differently.

CatherinedeBourgh
Yes, but I think competitive sports s a pretty stupid and male centric thing anyway so it’s no big loss to me if they lose all interest.

Have you considered the ramifications for the physical and psychological health of women and girls?

Currently:

"There areover 700,000 moreinactive womenthan men in England"

"Nearly 60% of girls aren’t meeting recommended exercise guidelines"

www.womeninsport.org/

OP, you centred males by only mentioning transwomen, but here's an interesting talk by Buck Angel, a transman who accepts that he is female and thinks that the TRA movement is damaging not only to women but to trans people themselves. You clearly centre males and don't like hearing the opinions of women, but as he looks male perhaps you'll listen to him.

The viewpoint that biological sex is real and immutable and that single sex spaces are important is a 'minority' view?

it seems pretty widespread among those who have been brave enough to discuss in with me in real life. Although each conversation has been tinged with worry about how I would react. You can almost see the relief when they realise others have the same view. I suspect the majority believe it, but many are worried about the potential backlash and being labelled transphobic to discuss with others in real life.