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Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

999 replies

LiberaceTrumpet · 13/06/2021 14:19

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

OP posts:
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 13/06/2021 16:06

@bendmeoverbackwards

I thought I was supportive of the trans movement but have been called transphobic by my teen DDs for refusing to state my pronouns on my email signature.
Show them the research that shows the bias against women in the workplace. If I'd ever been pressed to do this I'd have been asking HR for a copy of the equalities impact assessment they'd done before introducing this policy to ensure they'd looked at the possible effect on all the protected characteristics before proceeding.
SonoPortafortuna · 13/06/2021 16:06

Sex is determined by genetic inheritance. There are very, very few people born intersex due to chromosomal abnormalities.
From that stem primary sex characteristics eg genitals, and hormone influenced development. At puberty secondary characteristics develop.
There is a difference between male and female development, muscle mass, internal systems eg renal/urinary (hence normal range difference), height, voice, hair distribution, etc.
You cannot, scientifically, change your genetic makeup. You can, through surgery and hormone/drug therapy, change the expression of your primary and secondary characteristics to an extent.
You can change the gender you use/identify with. That, as a pp stated is a very complex mix of social norms, culture, learned behaviour, your sense of self and your sex.
I support trans people to the hilt to change their gender, and to live without challenge, discrimination and violence.
I do however have concerns about self ID, and the impact that has on women and girls who have experienced casual sexism every day, who have lived experience of harassment (95% of us) and those who are victims of sexual violence, hold or are subject to religious beliefs which require segregation. This is not bullying, nor transphobia. It is a concern that I see, a wish that a debate which should be about balancing rights is now a fight to suppress rights.

I am a woman. I do not identify as a ciswoman, nor a person who menstruates, nor a vagina-haver. A trans woman may be a woman, but she cannot be a woman in the same biological way as me. She may be subject to the joys of being a woman in experiencing sexism, male entitlement, body shaming and I’m on her side. But biologically her body isnt capable of things mine is, and hers may be capable of things mine is not in strength or sexual acts, and I don’t see why this can’t be acknowledged and discussed.

Helleofabore · 13/06/2021 16:06

@Parasol345

A lot of the conversations on this board are held about trans women, without trans women - I think that’s not ok. There is too much scaremongering.

It smacks of “I’m not transphobic, but…”

A lot of conversations on this board are about the potential or actual conflicts between the rights for females and those of another group. A group that has their very own unique needs but not the same needs as females.

It is actually not transphobic to discuss the needs of all females as a unique sex category. Please stop implying that it is.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 13/06/2021 16:07

@SheepyToaster

You're wasting your time on mumsnet. It is known to be transphobic amongst the LGBTQ+ community and advertisers.

I'm not sure I believe you are really a trans supporter as these threads start all the time and it's just a chance for people to pitch in.

Potato.

Not a slur, in case you choose to take it that way, but a refutation of your statements.

Lonel · 13/06/2021 16:07

Procreation has require sperms and eggs, but that doesn't mean being gas is unnatural and wrong.
But nobody here is saying being gay is unnatural and wrong. They are saying you cannot change sex! You can't cherry pick some facts and ignore others.

Chamonixshoopshoop · 13/06/2021 16:08

I support and am friends with trans women, I also think there is no place in female sport for those who were biologically born male.

I still support trans women.

It frustrates me when nuance and debate gets lost and 'you're transphobic' trumps everything else. It's boring.

Hoppinggreen · 13/06/2021 16:08

Support them to do what?
Lives their lives without fear of harassment because of how they choose to present themselves to the world?
Absolutely
Believe it’s possible to change sex?
Nope
Support the erasure of single sex spaces?
Nope

GCAcademic · 13/06/2021 16:08

I do occasionally get involved in the trans threads and have been called allsorts, including a racist, oddly enough.

Well, if you claim that male-born people are women in the same way that women who aren’t white are women, those of us who aren’t white do tend to find that sort of thing a bit racist and offensive, yes.

Beeeeeeeeeeeeeep · 13/06/2021 16:08

@SmallPrawnEnergy

I think a lot of women who say their safe spaces would also kick off of a ftm trans person who looked like this walked into the women’s toilets, as I have seen happen. I’ve also worked in places they have transitioned from separate changing areas to communal and incidents of sexual assault or inappropriate incidents decreased which directly goes against their “trans are rapists” mentality.
Actually, there is hard evidence that mixed sex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and children. Here is an article from the times which explains how. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk
RickiTarr · 13/06/2021 16:08

@LiberaceTrumpet

Why did you all come here so quickly when I asked you please not to? Are other viewpoints just not allowed on this website?

I know whatever I say you're all going to rip me to shreds - it's bullying behaviour. Can't you see how you're silencing other viewpoints and beliefs on this website?

It’s because you misrepresented the GC position. You cannot expect to do that and not to get pushback.

It is not bullying to correct your misrepresentation.

If you want a lib-fem, genderology thread, simply start one without denigrating, baiting or misrepresenting other groups.

GromblesOfGrimbledon · 13/06/2021 16:09

Freedom for everyone to be whatever they want.

Empty, pointless words.

paddingtonbearmeetsdeadpool · 13/06/2021 16:09

When we are little girls we are taught that we will one day be married and have children and put ourselves last. Little boys know they are stronger and may become the main bread winner in the house hold.

If you was to look at cave men and women the man would hunt while the woman would protect their young. What is the order now?

I hope you understand what I am asking.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 13/06/2021 16:09

Oh do stop with the logic, GC it isn't fair 😁

00100001 · 13/06/2021 16:09

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I'm with you op.

Even the threads with parents asking for help turn into grown adults asking about the toilet habits of young kids. It's really weird and creepy, yet those people can't see it at all.

I do occasionally get involved in the trans threads and have been called allsorts, including a racist, oddly enough. I asked tonnes of questions, probably 5 of them got answered.

Those people want to live in an echo chamber. However if you say one thing that doesn't align with their views they start with their #nodebate. The irony is actually hilarious.

I also find it pretty patronising when they post "I have put this in AIBU instead of feminism because I have decided you need to know about these things" then they all start patting each other on the back for bringing their one sided views to us stupid people.

Then there are the links, the same probably 10 links and pictures on every fucking thread, reeled out like they are brand new information. "A trans person did something bad once - link". Nae bother sweetie, it's not like there aren't millions of awful people everywhere Hmm uts a million times worse if a trans person does something though. God forbid.

Quite pathetic really. I guess they all need a bandwagon to jump on so they feel part of something.

I don't think anyone sensible assumes that just because one bad transperson exists that ALL trans people are bad. That's hyperbole.

But, the issue remains that SOME males will use
use use identifying as a woman to access vulnerable females. Either putting them at direct risk, or indirect risk.

The problem is a REAL problem. That is not being transphobic. It's saying that... How do we, as a society protect ALL people? How can we give trans people their right to a life free if harassment, abuse and prejudice AND give females their right to a life free of harassment, abuse and prejudice?

The real issue people have is actually, the rights of the transperson is often being put above that of other vulnerable people. And the result is that vulnerable people are being abused/denied places/unable to access services.

There needs to be a place to have measured and sensible debate, without fear of persecution.

Whythesadface · 13/06/2021 16:09

The LBG community's faught long and hard for rights, to be allowed to have their relationships recognised.
For the very community that wanted very rightly for these rights to be made law to now be the reason this is being torn apart with the TWAW seems beyond anyone's imagination.
Transgenders should not be stealing these rights, they should be asking for a third space. Not forcing a biological lie on the world.

Helleofabore · 13/06/2021 16:10

@NebbiaZanzare Just in case you missed the link before or because I have missed it in the speed of this thread, the Break it down for me thread is a great place to start.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Novelusername · 13/06/2021 16:10

@SmallPrawnEnergy

I think a lot of women who say their safe spaces would also kick off of a ftm trans person who looked like this walked into the women’s toilets, as I have seen happen. I’ve also worked in places they have transitioned from separate changing areas to communal and incidents of sexual assault or inappropriate incidents decreased which directly goes against their “trans are rapists” mentality.
I don't think any women would 'kick off' if a ftm used the women's toilets at all, because they are female and thus cannot rape and are less likely to sexually assault or be violent. We don't care how people look, we care about the threat they pose to women and girls, although I would suggest third spaces may be a good solution. Your anecdotes don't match up to the findings on sexual assault in mixed sex toilets and changing rooms, which show: Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities. www.tes.com/news/mixed-gender-toilets-have-negative-impact-girls
Beeeeeeeeeeeeeep · 13/06/2021 16:10

@Lonel

Freedom for everyone to be whatever they want. So how does that work exactly?
Can I be a horse? Or a black woman? (I'm not) can I be a rocket scientist? Can I be 7 foot tall? If not, am I not free to be whatever I want to be? Is that unfair? Does that need to be campaigned against?
Librariesmakeshhhhappen · 13/06/2021 16:10

@Stompythedinosaur

Brain size may have nothing to do with intelligence, but heart and lung size very much has something to do with ability in sport. As does longer leg lengths. Testosterone and male puberty does very much have a lot to do with strength and speed, even if you reduce testosterone after the fact.

This is not the same as saying women are stupid because they have smaller brains. These things directly impact ability in sport.

I have to be honest and say I dont particularly care who is in the toilet or changing room I am using, but I understand that it is not my place to tell other women that they just be naked beside a male body. For me, the trans debate is all about sport, prisons, stuff like that.

LoveFromDeauville · 13/06/2021 16:11

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RestingStitchFace · 13/06/2021 16:13

I agree with @ShirleyPhallus

RedDogsBeg · 13/06/2021 16:14

Parasol345 A lot of the conversations on this board are held about trans women, without trans women - I think that’s not ok. There is too much scaremongering.

The conversations are about women and girls you know adult and juvenile human females and their needs, wants and wishes. That's what feminism is about - females.

GromblesOfGrimbledon · 13/06/2021 16:14

The "how would you feel if Buck Angel walked into the women's toilets" argument completely misses the point.

Buck Angel in the men's toilet would not cause a stir and would not pose a threat to men.

A hulking great transwoman with no GRC and intact male genitalia does pose a threat to women.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 13/06/2021 16:16

But, the issue remains that SOME males will use identifying as a woman to access vulnerable females. Either putting them at direct risk, or indirect risk.

Those men always have, and always will find a way to access vulnerable people.

Some men become teachers to get access to kids. Should we stop men becoming teachers because of a few bad ones?

Some men become famous to abuse others, should we cancel all famous men?

Some men deliberately get with single parents to access kids, should we stop step families?

It is such a daft argument. It really is.

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