Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

@DazzlePaintedBattlePants

Why is it that the people who apparently few the way the OP does never have the tenacity to defend their position anywhere near as robustly as gender critical women on this forum?

Mumsnet is far and away one of the most open and respectful places on the internet - especially wrt feminism. I get that it may be intimidating if you’re only used to echo chambers and anything counter to the prevailing narrative being rapidly shut down. If you have a compelling argument, MN will listen and engage.

If you just have emojis, bleats of “be kiiiind” and no rational arguments then yes, you will get your arse handed to you…

Couldn't agree more. The tactic of labelling anything but total agreement as transphobia and bigotry used to frighten people off, but not any more.

I think a lot of women who say their safe spaces would also kick off of a ftm trans person who looked like this walked into the women’s toilets, as I have seen happen. I’ve also worked in places they have transitioned from separate changing areas to communal and incidents of sexual assault or inappropriate incidents decreased which directly goes against their “trans are rapists” mentality.

I can predict that now a number of them will come on attempting to malign my character, ask me 'what is a woman' repeatedly and deny the transphobia that we can all see daily.

So true.

I'm old enough to remember how bigoted people used to speak about gay people.
Me too. I am also able to see that this current ideology has nothing to do with gay people - unless you count the way it ignores or demonizes same sex attraction.

@Stompythedinosaur

But those misconceptions have been proved, by science, to be untrue.

Are you suggesting that in 50/100 years, science will have proved that make puberty does not increase male bodied people's abilities? Will it prove male bodied people do not actually have larger hearts and lungs, or that testosterone actually doesnt make any difference in sport?

No. It wont. The scientific fact of these differences between the sexes isnt going to change. Its concrete. Just as its quite clearly shown that reducing testosterone for a year does not remove the advantage of having gone through male puberty in the first place, or reduce their physique to that of a female body with the same abilities.

@MobyDicksTinyCanoe

I support trans women, the ones who transition as far as theyre able to. I don't support transwomen who plonk a wig on and declare themselves trans in order to get a better time of things in prison. Or to use it as a way to get access to female spaces.

I dont support transwomen who seem to think they can change biology and use it as a way to claim transphobia.

But other than that trans women can crack on......I figure if theyve gone the whole hog of hormone treatments, hair removal etc they can share my hand washing space in the loos.

This differentiates by appearance or willingness/health/ability to undergo invasive surgery or hormone treatment, which I find incredibly unfair.

@NebbiaZanzare

That's exactly what a social construct is though!!

Is it ? Oh well, I've misunderstood what a social construct is then. I though SC meant biology had a far lesser role to play.

In previous centuries men wore make-up and had long hair/wore wigs, they had fancy foppish clothes. In many cultures today men wear clothes that would be seen as skirts/dresses in Western eyes So it is (western) society/culture that decides that currently make-up, skirts etc are for women not biology.

unfortunately this site isn't the right place to do so because there's a couple of hundred (maybe thousand) people who will come on telling you that they support trans people while posting bigoted transphobic, and often racist rubbish

Where are these posters?

Can I just ask what a parenting website for those who don’t believe in biological sex would look like?

AIBU - DP and I have been trying to get pregnant for 2 years no and no luck :( Doctor has said it’s because we were both born male but we both identify as female so I don’t know why it’s not working for us.

AIBU - my DP isn’t pulling their weight around the house. One of us has borne children and given up work to be home with the babies and the other one goes out to work but when they’re home they don’t do any housework. It doesn’t matter which one of us is which. Can you advise?

I hope the OP hasn't gone.

I see the phrase 'feminism is nothing if it isn't intersectional' used a lot in relation to trans people, mostly those who are male and identify as women.

The phrase seems to imply that feminism has a brighter future ahead if it intersects with people who possess male biology.

So what is this brighter future of feminism going to look like that will be to the benefit to women and girls?

I would honestly like to know this because currently I can only see the pitfalls. Perhaps I'm being negative and I need it spelled out for me.

Alliances between two groups usually exist because they are mutually beneficial. I can see what the male half of the trans movement gets out of intersecting with feminism but what will women and girls get from it going forward?

@TheMotherlode

I support TW. What I’ve read on MN has really made me start to question some of the popular narrative around sex/gender though, I’m still not sure what I really think about it all but personally I have found MN useful as it’s one of the few places where people seem to feel confident to openly question it.

I have found the same, I never really questioned or considered any of the discourse until I came across it on here. It's a convoluted topic that requires a lot of nuance, it's not as simple as "be kind" or "let people be who they want" and challenging that has been important. I do support TW, but don't think kids should be pushed into long term treatments, nor do I think it's fair for biological males to compete against biological females in elite sport, and I think sex is immutable. I respect pronouns and people's right to self expression, but also want to protect single sex safe spaces. And I find the whole obsession with gender presentation a bit regressive.

@SmallPrawnEnergy

You may have worked some places were it decreases, but the statistics show that on the whole, it increases. You cant argue with data and figures which show assault increases in mixed sex spaces.

You're wasting your time on mumsnet. It is known to be transphobic amongst the LGBTQ+ community and advertisers.

I'm not sure I believe you are really a trans supporter as these threads start all the time and it's just a chance for people to pitch in.

@RedDogsBeg

No, those of us who support trans women’s rights to be women are campaigning for freedom

Freedom from what or to do what?

Freedom for everyone to be whatever they want.

Mumsnetters who support trans women

in what respect? I absolutely support the right of people to dress and behave in the ways that make them happy provided it doesn't impact on others.

I think the world would be a much happier place if it was socially acceptable for men to own 30 pairs of rainbow hued shoes. I've seen first hand the grief masculine presenting women can experience (from men generally).

I'd love it if all that prejudice went away.

Well OP. I am GC, have you met anyone trans? Ever? I am 39 and met my first at aged 8. My POV is through various personal experience from people I have met and from reading thoroughly on the subject over many years.

It has only been in the last few years terms such as CIS and TERF have been used in such derogatory ways towards women, even stating a biological fact such as birth sex is causing women to be persecuted, do you read the news? it's a bloody witch hunt.

Freedom for everyone to be whatever they want.
So how does that work exactly?

@Sargass0

Am sure there's loads of other sites you can use if you don't like what you read here. And that goes for any topic. You're never going to be able to control who writes what so find a site that is more in line with your views would be my view

That's shit really, isn't it

@orinocosfavoritecake

CardinalLolzy

Sure, but the posts about parking/weddings usually have clear titles. While most of the trans threads are called things like ‘AIBU to be shocked that...’

Most AIBU topics that are discussing the issues with Women's rights are quite clearly about the issue they are discussing. Is someone 'sneaking' topics in under misleading titles?

Could you please show us some evidence of this?

otherwise, it just seems like more hyperbole and it is probably not even relevant to the OP.

The other thing is that a lot of people quietly think that, for example, the way JK Rowling was treated is appalling, sexist bullying. However, they would be intimidated from stating their real opinions IRL because they would also be bullied and potentially threatened.

Mumsnet discussions allow people (women maybe in many cases) to be honest about what they think in a safe environment.

I don't think feminists should be threatened with sexual assault for politely saying their case. That doesn't make me somehow against trabswomen.

Procreation requires a male and a female. Female brains are also generally smaller than males, as the female skull is smaller.
You seem confused.

Not confused at all. You are demonstrating my point beautifully.

Bigoted people find a (true) biological fact and fixate on it as if it justifies their discriminatory beliefs. So, women having a smaller brain size doesn't actually indicate lower IQ and certainly doesn't justify paying them less in the workplace. Procreation has require sperms and eggs, but that doesn't mean being gas is unnatural and wrong.

People cannot change their genetic make-up, but that doesn't mean their perception of their gender is incorrect, or that they are expressing it in order to attack other groups of women.

*being gay

Freedom for everyone to be whatever they want.

Not that the statement needed clarifying in anyway, but as the Head of State, I proclaim my full endorsement and agreement. Glad that we agree, Catherine!

This is ridiculous

Freedom for everyone to be whatever they want.

With no limits whatsoever? Really?

There's a distinct lack of logic and critical thinking in your statement.