Mumsnetters who support trans women, please comment here

[LiberaceTrumpet]

Mumsnetters who are gender critical - please please do not comment here, this is not a discussion thread, I just want to see if there are other people here who share my views.

I believe feminism is nothing if not intersectional.

I feel really alone on mumsnet. Every time I come on and want to get advice about something or just waste five minutes there's always another trans thread. Maybe this website is not the place for me?

[quote Justa47]@LiberaceTrumpet

I support transgender people and with gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy you can utterly change sexi as the mind changes.[/quote]
How does external surgery change someone's DNA??

It's like saying I have had cosmetic surgery and I look exactly like Angelina Jolie, therefore I AM Angelina Jolie...

A transperson can live "as a woman/man" (whatever that means??) But they will remain female/male. No amount of surgery, silencing, bullying, use of preferred pronouns...etc will change the biological reality.

And IT'S OKAY TO SAY THAT.

it not transphobic.

I posted because it was trending. I would want to support transwomen.

I also don't agree with some of the labels that they use, like TERF, or some of the behaviour of transactivists.

I think various aspects of the situation are quite nuanced.

I support transwomen in the same way I support Muslims, Catholics and Jews - that is, I'm not one myself but I would defend their rights to live their lives free from any kind of discrimination and believe that these rights should be enshrined in law. I would also extent courtesy and tolerance to all these groups. What I can't support is being forced into believing what they believe, or else being threatened with rape, murder or losing my job.
I also defend my right to question the practices of these groups where these practices may infringe upon my own rights or freedom of speech. For example, I don't believe in bringing in blasphemy laws which could send me to prison for not believing in what they believe. Most gender critical people are very live and let live, but what we object to is being forced into submission, often on threat of violence, into repeating a mantra that we simply do not believe.
In accusing gender critical people of bullying at hate, you're coming across as very emotional and as though you don't really understand that what we're against is the erosion of women's rights. This might be helpful to read:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

circle-jerk interesting choice of phrase.

[quote Justa47]@HermioneWeasley

I meant what I said. I think people can change sex with appropriate normal therapies and gender reassignment surgery. So people say you never can. I think that’s wrong.[/quote]
Can you please show a picture of a born human female who has grown a penis.
Or a born male who has had a baby ?

@ErykahBaddy

I believe they should be indistinguishable from any other women in the eyes of the law, and that should be protected.

I know whatever I say you're all going to rip me to shreds - it's bullying behaviour.

Accusing people of attacking and bullying in advance is not the way to garner support. It's not rational or open to discussion and exchange of viewpoints - qualities which you are advocating. Practise what you preach and you will get the support and respect you deserve.

I suspect I am on a similar way of thinking to you op, however yes, we are a minority on MN.

I suggest you block thr feminism board which is where the majority of they’re controversial topics sit (it doesn’t stop it showing in most active though which is a downfall of MN).

I know whatever I say you're all going to rip me to shreds - it's bullying behaviour. Can't you see how you're silencing other viewpoints and beliefs on this website?
However, I don’t agree with on this point. By trying to force your point of view you are silencing others. And, you’re not really making any viewpoints, you’re posting somewhat inflammatory and emotional statements and responding with sad emojis and hyper emotional sentences like the above. If you have your convictions stand up for them! Have an excellent breadth of understanding and information at your disposal to share, to debate. That goes for ANY topic. It isn’t bullying to share an opposing response, however it is entitled and childish to cry and flounce when opposed rather than present your opinion strongly and earnestly.

Urgh, “circle jerk”. Are you a 14 year old boy? I can see why threads where people discuss women’s rights rather than resort to vulgar, puerile insults might not be your cup of tea.

I absolutely support trans women (and men) because I 100% believe that everyone should be able to live a life that makes them happy, without fear, detriment or discrimination.

What I can't support is the TRA stance that transwomens desire for validation should be prioritised over natal women and girls rights to live a life free of fear, detriment and discrimination . And if anyone dare complain about the impact on them, they are labelled terfs or transphobes and it is seen as acceptable for them to be silenced, fired or face threats of death or rape.

Frankly TRAs do so much damage to the cause of transpeople

Has it ever occurred to you that gc people are "swamping" the board because most ppl are gc?

I've just quickly looked through at usernames and it's not the usual set of names that regularly crops up in fwr. Probably cos they're all in fwr or busy cos it's a lovely hot Sunday.

Another one here adding my support to ShirleyPhallus post, and I think i've posted on FWR less than a handful of times in my time on MN.

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

This.

Plenty of feminists have the view of acceptance and no problem with anyone living and presenting themselves in the way that makes their lives feel fulfilled and happy, but also campaign for the need to maintain sex segregated sports and spaces due to fairness and safety.

It is the trans movement which want to throw out safety and fairness, all because of "feelings". And it's that movement which refuse to engage in meaningful discussion, or even consider that what they want is seriously hurting another ground of marginalised people (biological women).

@orinocosfavoritecake

I avoid trans rights threads too *@CatherinedeBourgh* - but half the time a thread in AIBU with a vague title turns out to be yet another gender critical self-congratulatory circle jerk.

Yes, completely agree. Also don’t seem to be able to hide topics any more, and the active conversations gets overrun...

[quote CatherinedeBourgh]@ErykahBaddy

I believe they should be indistinguishable from any other women in the eyes of the law, and that should be protected.[/quote]

You can't foresee any problems with that? Any problems at all?

@orinocosfavoritecake

I avoid trans rights threads too *@CatherinedeBourgh* - but half the time a thread in AIBU with a vague title turns out to be yet another gender critical self-congratulatory circle jerk.

No it doesn't. AIBU is mostly about parking, only being invited to the evening of a wedding or whether a woman talked to someone's husband.

I support trans women but you can't change sex and sex based protections must be kept in place.

THIS x 1000000000

Being trans is hard and it must be awful to be judged just for being who you are. I support the trans community. I don't support some of the ideas and opinions being floated that involve doing away with or not enforcing single sex spaces.

As someone who has been raped, I do not want anyone with a penis anywhere near me in toilets, changing rooms etc. I also think it would be far too open to abuse. Gender and sex are two different things. Gender segregation is ludicrous. Sex segregation is necessary and needs protecting.

A transwomans body is male. Whether she feels she belongs in that body or not, it is undeniably male and while it can be altered with hormones and surgery to better suit the person inside, it can't be made female and the safety of one group should not be sacrificed for the sake of another group not feeling offended.

I think everyone could do with a bit more compassion for each other.

Do people actually believe that people - humans can really really change sex - I mean really really believe this

In my opinion - not that it means much if someone truly believes that then I think they have some form of mental health issues

I support the right for anyone man or women boy or girl to wear what they want look and live their life exactly how they want to .
I don’t believe and never will believe that a person can change their sex
Because they can’t - they can have all the operations and certificates they want - they may legally be a woman ( if it’s a man transitioning) but they can’t biologically change sex .

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

Another supporter of this post! I think this is what the majority of people think in general.

@RedDogsBed

Why interesting?

Oh God, you’re not playing the ‘poster supporting trans rights must be a man’ game, are you?

@orinocosfavoritecake

Yes! Ducksarenotmyfriends. There isn’t a feminist board - there’s only an anti-trans rights campaigning board. It’s depressing.

More a pro-women's rights than an anti-trans rights board. Trans rights should not trample on women's rights, which is what they are trying to do. Strangely trans men don't seem to demand the same trampling or men's rights. Why is that?

@ShirleyPhallus

I support trans women

I also believe that sex cannot be changed and that the current trans movement is damaging to feminism

It’s possible to be both

Yep, what she said.

And yet, there is a twitter monitoring account that conveniently counts the number of trans related threads on Feminist Chat every 12 hours because they can. It is around 30 today out of 50 on the front page due to the happenings around Stonewall and Maya Forstater's case.

By the way, it is an activist account doing the counting so is often mistaken about the content because they like hyperbole and are prone to exaggerate.

So, you cannot engage with the 20 out of 50 on the front page that is NOT trans related?

Isn't it infantilising to think you cannot scroll through and ignore the titles you don't want to engage with? Like so many of us do with other parts of the forum, and indeed do in the feminism sections too?

@Lonel

I think that trans women should have exactly the same rights as any other women. Including the right to compete in women's sports and win medals even if they are twenty years older than the other competitors?

Yes, but I think competitive sports s a pretty stupid and male centric thing anyway so it’s no big loss to me if they lose all interest.

In the same way I would say that the spelling of your username is interesting.

One is not common phrase used by women

The other is not a UK spelling

Interesting... not the norm here, on this forum.

@nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut

I support trans women but you can't change sex and sex based protections must be kept in place.

THIS x 1000000000

Being trans is hard and it must be awful to be judged just for being who you are. I support the trans community. I don't support some of the ideas and opinions being floated that involve doing away with or not enforcing single sex spaces.

As someone who has been raped, I do not want anyone with a penis anywhere near me in toilets, changing rooms etc. I also think it would be far too open to abuse. Gender and sex are two different things. Gender segregation is ludicrous. Sex segregation is necessary and needs protecting.

A transwomans body is male. Whether she feels she belongs in that body or not, it is undeniably male and while it can be altered with hormones and surgery to better suit the person inside, it can't be made female and the safety of one group should not be sacrificed for the sake of another group not feeling offended.

I think everyone could do with a bit more compassion for each other.

Absolutely this!