Does it make someone a LGBTQ ally if they wear the pride lanyard but object when a transgender person uses their restroom ?

[thecatmother]

In my workplace we are very open and inclusive and many colleagues chose to wear their IDs on the Pride lanyards and are very active participants in all the Pride related events.
So far so peaceful, or so I thought, we had a new colleague joining recently, it is a lady who is transitioning from being born a man. She is very polite and just gets on with her work and day. I wasn't surprised to see her using the Ladies, unfortunately a number of my colleagues have formed an opinion about that. The management has been supporting the new colleague, and they held "conversations " with the complaining parties.
However, those people are still wearing their Pride lanyards, I can't get my head around that. The lanyards are purely on volunteer basis, we have generic ones. I generally wonder whether they actually realise that being an ally is not about getting drunk on Pride , but actually to be supportive to the people of LGBTQ.

@thecatmother

Sorry, the question was lost in the sea of answers. I mean, in between, as far as I have learnt now, it takes a few years for the operation. My colleague goes by female name, lives her life as a female, so far so transparent. I am not close enough to her to ask more intimate details.

How do you live a female life?

'I think most male predators have plenty of opportunity without having to pretend to be trans.'

Ah! The old. Don't worry ladies, if men want to attack you they will! So why are you making such a fuss??!!??

This is supposed to be a persuasive argument?

And again. This is work. Most workplaces (unlike schools) are pretty safe. Your colleagues don't want to be sacked.

The dismissal of all the other reasons women don't want mixed sex are just dismissed. The only thing we are supposed to worry about is the most severe form of sexual violence. But also not worry about it because you know. If you're female it's just a risk you were born to take. And that's nothing you can do about it.

Given that large numbers of women in the UK have been raped. And that hardly any have never been subjected to Street harassment, flashing, following, sexualised threats, sexual assault etc etc it really is a stunningly crass argument.

And again. This is work. Most workplaces (unlike schools) are pretty safe. Your colleagues don't want to be sacked.

It’s as though people think sexual assault in the workplace just doesn’t happen.

Maybe your colleague is absolutely lovely. But don't you see that by changing women's spaces it opens the door to everyone? And judging by a lot of the behaviour I've witnessed in real life and online, that's not a door you want opened.

' The colleague in question is very shy and just a normal person. It actually upsets me to think that they are by default are presumed a predator.'

And if someone else starts who does not behave like that? Someone who makes you feel uncomfortable? Who stands too close, who often seems to need the loo at the same time as attractive young women? Who does those things that so many creepy men do that are really intimidating but not illegal and not something you can complain about without sounding silly?

What then? Well you can't do anything can you. The women all start queueing for the accessible facilities, or go at lunchtime, or to a different floor, and that's that.

The idea that any male who has a trans identity is automatically safe as houses is...? Why? Why would that be true?

'For what it's worth, I don't fear for my life when I share the space with her, and the same goes for everyone I work with. Regardless of their gender.'

Again the idea that women should only be concerned with all single sex stuff effectively becoming mixed sex if it makes us fear for our lives.

Angelo I was talking about the idea that men in the workplace are prone to beating other men up in the bogs.

Never heard of that happening.

I already mentioned that I know 2 men who have been sacked for gross misconduct for sexual misconduct.

Not sure why you picked that line out of context.

Thought experiment. Imagine that all women had German Shepherd dogs, but no men did. These dogs were our witchly familiars and women went everywhere with them.

Now imagine that 95% of men between 18-24 had encountered a dog being aggressive to them in a public place.

Also, imagine that statistics showed that at least 1 in 4 men would be viciously attacked by a dog during their lifetime, and sometimes killed, and that 2 men a week were killed by their partner's dog.

Don't you think men would be entitled to men-only, woman-free, dog-free toilets at work, without any quibbling?

I'm off to bed now. Curious that the questions no-one wants to answer are

• whether trans men should be able to request single-sex spaces if a trans woman requests that that space is single-gender (and vice versa), and
• what 'living as a female' is.

There's also a very outdated assumption that 'transitioning' has anything to do with surgery or changing one's body or appearance (it's perfectly possible to have a female gender identity but appear to be male in every way), and the assertion that it's somehow possible to falsely claim to be trans, which indicates some people's identities are open to being invalidated.

To a PP yes there are 3 swimming ponds at Hampstead heath.

Male
Female.
Mixed

The other point is that the female and male ponds have for a long time been seen as very gay/ lesbian friendly places. So that's out the window really.

I also read that they have to have a lot of big shrubs etc round the ladies as men like to try and get photos.

OP you are thinking of your colleague who I'm sure is lovely. But under the same umbrella is this person # www.cocktailsandcocktalk.com/2015/01/13-times-clapham-tranny-slayed-outfits/. And you can't say it ok for one and not the other, it is yes or no for all (take it out of the workplace if that's easier - imagine it's your local shopping centre as you can say this person wouldn't get a job near you!).

I want to be very clear, this person is an extreme and most transgender people are not exhibitionist. But the same rule covers everyone. You can't just choose the ones who look friendly (not that that is any guide sadly). There is no such thing as a genuine transwoman - people are who they say they are. Look up Stonewall's trans umbrella sometime - this is far bigger than most people realise.

#You may want to look at that link on a private tab - I'm dreading the adverts I'm going to be followed round with!

@NiceGerbil

Angelo I was talking about the idea that men in the workplace are prone to beating other men up in the bogs.

Never heard of that happening.

I already mentioned that I know 2 men who have been sacked for gross misconduct for sexual misconduct.

Not sure why you picked that line out of context.

I want having dig, apologies if that came across as one

Oh I forgot to mention how impressed I was with the person who said in the ladies they do their business, no eye contact (?!) what the hell else would happen.

So I provided a list of the sort of things that are normal in my industry.

The answer apparently to suggest that the women in my (very large) industry don't do any work!

Oh just thought of another. In client meetings going to the loo together on the breaks, having a bit of a natter (sometimes while doing a wee!) and in a male dominated industry that's a really valuable thing. If there's two of you and 12 men it's a bit of camaraderie iyswim.

When I think about it there's loads. I'm sure there are unwritten codes that I adhere to without realising, same as in the gents. Male bog protocol seems very strict.

LOL. I tried this experiment the other day wrt MRAs trying to bring about a level playing field by taking away all protections for women & pretending we're all just the same (which inevitably leads to women losing out). What if...

... women were all between 7-8 foot tall & some are handy with the big, sharp claws they all have on their hands. It's a matriarchy. Women own all the property & money in this society, they run everything & most tend to favour other women for jobs, etc. Some women are very aggressive & violent towards men - but you can't tell which ones are & which ones aren't. Nothing much is done about the violence.

Now tell me how many men would be advocating for a level playing field.

My post was in reply to PurgatoryofPotholes

No probs Angelo :)

So to sum up this thread. I think it's more or less.

You're only using the toilet what's the problem
If a man wants to attack a woman he will so what's the problem
The transwoman I know in real life is lovely
If you have reason to be scared or very uncomfortable being in a space behind closed doors with a male person then you need to use alternative facilities
It's impossible for a male with a trans identity to behave in a creepy/ inappropriate way towards women
There is danger in the gents so the women need to be kind
Maybe more?

NiceGerbil how about:

It's completely impossible to ever have a third space. Anywhere. Ever.
The needs of religious women will not be considered.
Women are wrong about things men have no experience of.

@thecatmother

And one more thought. This lady is the first transgender person that I have ever met, therefore I treat her with respect, just like I would another human being. I am in my mid 40s. It makes me wonder , how many of people so vehemently protesting here have actually met a person (male or female) who is in their transition, and would you treat them with such hostility...

Yes. I know (and love dearly) both MtF and FtM trans people. The ones I know very well i would happily get undressed around. I would share a bed with them if necessary. Because I know them. I also have male friends I would do the same with. Because I know and trust them.

That doesn't mean I should be happy to get undressed in front of male bodied people I don't know. And if I'm in the womens toilets/changing room then I don't expect to find male bodied people in there.

There's also a trans woman locally who's well known for being a scammer. She approaches people with a sob story about needing money. Then goes and buys wine.
I've also seen them out and about in pubs as a man. Seems they are only a "woman" when they need to beg.

IfIWere you won't get anywhere.

A lot of men are gleeful about all this.

You wanted equality. Ha! Don't like it much now do you! Sometimes illustrated more succinctly by saying yay now I can punch women in the face.

Also seen when talking about harassment/ sexual coercion etc. I'd love it if a woman paid me a compliment/ propositioned me on the street! Etc.

The actual comparison is imagining they are 14 again and a massive bloke or two who are twice their age hassling them sexually.

They don't like to hear that. Men in general don't want to think about/ face up to the reality of the lives of girls and women when it comes to this stuff.

And:

Anyone who supports women's existing rights must never have met a TW.

NiceGerbil

True.

IfIWere -good additions!

I live in London and in reality the space cost etc of 3rd spaces means it's not going to happen.

In practice loads of female facilities have been relabeled mixed sex and the gents is still the gents.

EG my tube station had 2 ladies cubicles, now unisex. Accessible one toilet was always unisex. Gents is the gents with apparently urinals and 2 cubicles.

So male provision expanded even though women need more. Gents still get a single sex space. Humph.

Oh and also due to the whole entitlement /socialisation differences.

For some reason we were talking about using disabled toilets at work. The women all said they wouldn't. The men all said what's the problem it's a bog if it's free then use it.

The men at that job and the next one used the accessible facilities for a shit. Men are funny about that.

When I was pregnant at tube station before the signage changed there were 3 of us waiting. Other one was out of order. We knocked etc. After ages man came out smirking followed by vomit inducing smell.

I know 2 men who have pissed in the sink rather than the urinal when drunk.

Loads of men already feel no compunction about using stuff not for them if it's handy and they personally can't see a problem.

This fact is ignored in all this as well.

@WouldbeVa

I’m a flag flying lesbian. I don’t want males in my toilets thanks.

I feel a fantastic slogan for yourself and peers is 'Out and proud, no men allowed' To support your belief, I too support protected women's spaces.

It depends on if they have had the operation or not. I don't feel it's right to use women's toilets if you still have the male anatomy. Women's safe spaces should be for women. It's about safeguarding and making women feel safe.

I can’t pretend to be up on the whole toilet debate. I do remember once thinking ‘what’s the problem’ why can’t toilets’ just be used for anyone when we are adults? But then I also thought, then what is the problem with keeping them for men/women then? Found myself going around in circles!

My main concern is girls, boys and education. I think we leave that well alone for safeguarding reasons.

But in this work example, if it was my old workplaces, in the NHS, there we have several women from different cultures who would find mixed toilets very inappropriate to their cultural beliefs. Some, for example, were female refugees who we wanted to feel that they could trust healthcare services, who would have possibly avoided and distrusted, so I don’t think we would have wanted to put up a barrier to accessing healthcare.

Not so simple an argument as I’d once thought.