Does it make someone a LGBTQ ally if they wear the pride lanyard but object when a transgender person uses their restroom ?

[thecatmother]

In my workplace we are very open and inclusive and many colleagues chose to wear their IDs on the Pride lanyards and are very active participants in all the Pride related events.
So far so peaceful, or so I thought, we had a new colleague joining recently, it is a lady who is transitioning from being born a man. She is very polite and just gets on with her work and day. I wasn't surprised to see her using the Ladies, unfortunately a number of my colleagues have formed an opinion about that. The management has been supporting the new colleague, and they held "conversations " with the complaining parties.
However, those people are still wearing their Pride lanyards, I can't get my head around that. The lanyards are purely on volunteer basis, we have generic ones. I generally wonder whether they actually realise that being an ally is not about getting drunk on Pride , but actually to be supportive to the people of LGBTQ.

@Sally872

Don't educate yourself on mumsnet. Most extreme views on this I have ever seen.

I agree they should not be preventing their colleague using the female toilet. Unless they are genuinely concerned it is an elaborate plan to gain access to a toilet to attack a female.

It isn't a public toilet it is a staff toilet. They arent talking generally or protecting spaces for all women. They are trying to prevent a particular person using a female toilet. Horrible behaviour.

And that' s how I see it. The colleague in question is very shy and just a normal person. It actually upsets me to think that they are by default are presumed a predator. For what it's worth, I don't fear for my life when I share the space with her, and the same goes for everyone I work with. Regardless of their gender.

I think most male predators have plenty of opportunity without having to pretend to be trans.

Look, whenever you say 'pretend to be trans' or 'claim to be trans' you are suggesting that people lie about their identity. This is everything that people who fight for trans rights are fighting against. Your gender is what you say it is, that is how we know what people's gender is - literally self-identification.

What you dismiss as 'a difficulty' in trying to ascertain who is actually female and who is just pretending is the whole basis of what many feminists are trying to pin down and fight against because it erases the female sex as a class. At the moment, sex is being overwritten by gender in law, and gender is what you say it is. There is no test to determine sex, because nothing is segregated by sex, and no test to determine gender, because that is impossible and can only be identified by someone's self-identification of their gender.

@Sally872 well letting transwomen have free and unfettered access into every single sex female space (including toilets) sure as hell isn’t the answer either.

Just because male predators already have plenty of opportunity doesn’t mean we have to hand them a load more.

(Above post was to @Sally872 btw! And again not meant to be a pile-on but a tiny explanation of a tiny part of the issues at stake)

I know many shy, normal males. I wouldn’t allow them to use the women’s toilets though. Not because I presume they’re a predator, but because I value the comfort of women who I don’t know (and their own perceived safety).
The world shouldn’t revolve around males and their feelings.

I think most male predators have plenty of opportunity without having to pretend to be trans.

And this is your argument for scrapping sex segregation?

[quote Staffy1]@Changemusthappen, I'm not 100% sure on this but I think there is a third mixed sex pool, so I wonder why the trans women couldn't just use that instead of using the women's pool anyway?[/quote]
Again- because there is no validation to be had in using mixed sex facilities. They wanted to use the women’s pool, and they stamped their feet and shouted and demanded until they got it.

cough male entitlement writ large cough

There is also the issue that a person can be genuinely trans and also a sex offender.

Especially as stonewall include cross dressers under their trans umbrella, when cross dressing for some (not all obv) is a paraphilia strongly correlated with sex offending. (In men. I mean the fact that will go without saying to most people is telling isn't it).

As for this

'@HermioneWeasley In this case it seems to be a woman daring to use a (presumably cubicled) bathroom. Why don’t you care about this woman’s safety in having to use the men’s toilets?'

Why don't trans activists care about the safety of men? If there is a culture of men attacking others using the bogs (??!! At work?!) then they will be dangerous to lots of those they share with. Men who they know are gay or suspect they are, men who are disabled, men who they think are weird, men who don't behave in a masculine enough way, etc etc etc. What of those men? I really don't understand why one group of male people need to be protected by going on the ladies and all the other men don't?

And if the men are that violent then won't someone they know is male using the ladies will set them right off?

It doesn't actually map to real life. At all.

'Also don’t call someone people who identify (and are!) women male, it’s rude and I don’t believe MNHQ approve either'

Hold on. So in many areas we've lost woman from meaning as sex to meaning internal gender id. (Less so with man, funny that).

Now your saying male female are gender not sex as well?

Leaving no words to refer to female or male people as global/ historical/ biological groups at all?

Crikey.

@GroggyLegs

I think most male predators have plenty of opportunity without having to pretend to be trans.

And this is your argument for scrapping sex segregation?

“Rapists gonna rape!”

And one more thought. This lady is the first transgender person that I have ever met, therefore I treat her with respect, just like I would another human being. I am in my mid 40s.
It makes me wonder , how many of people so vehemently protesting here have actually met a person (male or female) who is in their transition, and would you treat them with such hostility...

So just out of interest, to Sally and others who agree that we don't need single-sex spaces - could you give an answer as to whether the trans man or trans woman should 'win' in the situation I described earlier?

And if you are finding it genuinely tricky to answer, can you introspect on why?

"In the example of prisons, a trans man might want to be in a female-sex prison (ie mixed gender identities) and the trans woman might want to be in a female-gender prison (ie mixed sex). Only one would be able to get what they feel is best for themselves because the presence of the opposite sex stops a space being single-sex, and the presence of the opposite gender identity stops that space being single-gender.

Who should 'win' here where they are in conflict?"

[quote FelicityBeedle]@HermioneWeasley In this case it seems to be a woman daring to use a (presumably cubicled) bathroom. Why don’t you care about this woman’s safety in having to use the men’s toilets? Also don’t call someone people who identify (and are!) women male, it’s rude and I don’t believe MNHQ approve either[/quote]
That negates any arguments for not using the cubicled bathrooms for people with penises.

[quote Sally872]@MasterStef I think prisons and likely some other situations would have to be a separate consideration.

In the OP regarding colleague using female toilet I believe she should use the female toilet.[/quote]
But this is where the problem lies. ‘Separate considerations’ would be deemed transphobic. Either you’re fully on board with the message that ‘trans women are women’, and therefore eligible to utilise all spaces and rights reserved for women - toilets, changing rooms, women’s hostels, women’s prisons, women’s sports - or you’re not. You can’t pick and choose - it really is all or nothing.

So having empathy for this one transwoman in this one office, and thinking it’s a kindness to allow them to use the women’s toilets if that makes them feel comfortable or safe, is completely understandable, particularly as we've been socialised to be kind. But it's actually the thin end of the wedge.

@thecatmother

And one more thought. This lady is the first transgender person that I have ever met, therefore I treat her with respect, just like I would another human being. I am in my mid 40s. It makes me wonder , how many of people so vehemently protesting here have actually met a person (male or female) who is in their transition, and would you treat them with such hostility...

Well to get an answer to that, you will need to answer my previous question from earlier, which is what exactly you mean by 'transition'? Are you talking surgery or pronouns or something in between?

@thecatmother

And one more thought. This lady is the first transgender person that I have ever met, therefore I treat her with respect, just like I would another human being. I am in my mid 40s. It makes me wonder , how many of people so vehemently protesting here have actually met a person (male or female) who is in their transition, and would you treat them with such hostility...

I know two trans men but they’re the trans people who no one gives a shit about so that probably doesn’t count to you.

agreatmistake
In an ideal world, there would be enough toilets for everyone to have their own personal one. In the real world, that won't happen, so you need to have a plan for what to do with the resources you have. I'd say the simple answer is for people to use the toilets that match their biological sex unless they've made a disclosure to HR.

See, you've introduced a strawman there. The choice is not between women giving up their single-sex toilets / 'everyone' having 'their own personal one'.

A company can simply nominate one existing set of toilets as the third option, either solely for trans people or for anyone to use as well as trans people. All other sets of toilets in the building are single-sex. I know of one company where this was done, with the agreement of the TW who worked there, & apparently it was successful.

(Also - psst, OP! The assumption that you haven't met a trans person before this lady, because you think you 'can tell' if someone's gender identity doesn't match their biological sex - that's transphobic!)

Yes, I've known two transwomen. None of us was hostile.

I still want single-sex facilities for myself & for other women. I know how vital they are.

thecatmother

The thing is that now you have this lovely, quiet transwoman in your mind when you're discussing this. I'm sure the person is perfectly nice and means no harm and just wants to get on with their life.

Now imagine going into the toilets and seeing what you perceive as a male person that you don't know and has made no effort to appear as a woman (whatever that means).

Do you think you feel the same? (I don't know if you are aware that there is no need for a transwoman to actually try and pass)

Sorry, the question was lost in the sea of answers. I mean, in between, as far as I have learnt now, it takes a few years for the operation. My colleague goes by female name, lives her life as a female, so far so transparent. I am not close enough to her to ask more intimate details.

When you say everyone being under the same umbrella it's interesting as I'd consider these separate issues.

LGB - sexuality, who you're romantically attracted to.

T - being born in the wrong body, about your gender identity. To do with which gender you feel you are.

So I find it a bit confusing that these two very separate things are put together.

But what do you mean by 'lives her life as a female'? What do females do that males don't, that she is doing?

Oh there you go with the 'have actually met a person (male or female) who is in their transition, and would you treat them with such hostility'
Why do you always assume that people are operating from a place of unfamiliarity?
You can't extrapolate all trans people from your one experience. You did claim to have only met one.

Well to get an answer to that, you will need to answer my previous question from earlier, which is what exactly you mean by 'transition'? Are you talking surgery or pronouns or something in between?

Someone in my workplace has recently transitioned. This involved a change of name and pronouns. They still look exactly the same as they did before (i.e. they present as a burly male). Of course I would treat them with respect, but I don’t see that that must include pretending that I believe that they are female when I don’t and sharing female toilets and changing rooms with them (we have a gym and pool at work which don’t have individual cubicles for changing). Fair enough, they may believe that they are a woman, but my own identity and understanding of myself as a woman hinges upon the reality of biological sex.

I mean, in between, as far as I have learnt now, it takes a few years for the operation

In many cases, there is no operation. The majority of transwomen retain their male genitalia.

And again OP - if you are assuming she is going to have 'an operation' that's a hell of an assumption (unless of course she's told you) - most trans women don't, and it's quite offensive to assume that an operation is some sort of requirement to be trans.