Does it make someone a LGBTQ ally if they wear the pride lanyard but object when a transgender person uses their restroom ?

[thecatmother]

In my workplace we are very open and inclusive and many colleagues chose to wear their IDs on the Pride lanyards and are very active participants in all the Pride related events.
So far so peaceful, or so I thought, we had a new colleague joining recently, it is a lady who is transitioning from being born a man. She is very polite and just gets on with her work and day. I wasn't surprised to see her using the Ladies, unfortunately a number of my colleagues have formed an opinion about that. The management has been supporting the new colleague, and they held "conversations " with the complaining parties.
However, those people are still wearing their Pride lanyards, I can't get my head around that. The lanyards are purely on volunteer basis, we have generic ones. I generally wonder whether they actually realise that being an ally is not about getting drunk on Pride , but actually to be supportive to the people of LGBTQ.

[quote FelicityBeedle]@HermioneWeasley In this case it seems to be a woman daring to use a (presumably cubicled) bathroom. Why don’t you care about this woman’s safety in having to use the men’s toilets? Also don’t call someone people who identify (and are!) women male, it’s rude and I don’t believe MNHQ approve either[/quote]
But deep down, everyone knows that this person is biologically male, regardless of how they present.

Why should women have to worry about the safety of men in men's bathrooms? It's sod all to do with us!

If a feminine-presenting man feels unsafe in the men's bathroom because of men's violence, that is not women's problem to solve.

• I 100% support LGB rights & would defend them if required.

I 100% do not support any of the other letters or think they have anything in common with LGB.

I 0% support the idea of men in the womens toilets.*

No male bodied persons should be in women’s changing rooms, hospital wards (as patients or unchaperoned nurses) or toilets because women and girls are extremely vulnerable.

@Sickofthesoapbox12

I’m very confused about what goes on in some staff toilets from the talk on this thread.

Where I work you go into a cubicle (alone) do you business, right yourself again and the go out and wash your hands. I can’t even remember the last eye contact I made with another person in the work loo (usually there’s nobody else in there at the same time). Never mind seeing a nobody else’s ‘bits’.

Clearly I’m in the minority here but I thought that was a pretty normal work place toileting experience.

I think it’s wrong to assume somebody else is a sexual predator just because they’re transitioning. Don’t get me wrong women’s rights being degraded is an issue but I think this is a whole other to some of the others mentioned by a PP such as trans people in female prisons and patients being comfortable with the professionals providing intimate examinations.

Surely a unisex single toilet is the way forward, go in do your business and leave.

There was a very interesting thread a while ago called “what do you use the ladies’ toilets for” or something. Turns out it’s not just for doing your business and washing your hands. It’s sometimes a refuge, sometimes a laundry, sometimes (sadly) a place you miscarry. I’ll try to find it.

Why don’t you care about this woman’s safety in having to use the men’s toilets?

Do you care about women’s safety in women’s toilets? If so, they need to remain single sex, not become single gender.

Here it is
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203454-What-do-you-use-the-womens-toilets-for

There’s been a lot of talk about others getting naked when people aren’t expecting it and people
not feeling ‘safe’ if a trans woman is around as well as talk about potentially seeing body parts. All that heavily implies a sexual predator element as normal people don’t get naked unexpectedly in front of colleagues in toilets.

@NiceGerbil I’m a cis woman, using women’s (and occasionally single unisex toilets) at work. We do none of the stuff like doing hair, make-up and nattering at work because ya know we’re all too busy working...

[quote Sally872]@MasterStef I think prisons and likely some other situations would have to be a separate consideration.

In the OP regarding colleague using female toilet I believe she should use the female toilet.[/quote]
Ah, sorry, you said 'toilet/spaces' so thought you were talking about other spaces that are traditionally sex-segregated as well!
I personally am not too fussed about toilets but would stand up for those who need toilets to be single-sex because of disability, religion, trauma, safety or dignity.

Do you believe prisons - or any other space - should be single-sex? Or should everything be single-gender, as is proposed in law/ is law in some places?

I think it’s wrong to assume somebody else is a sexual predator just because they’re transitioning

Of course. But that’s not what’s happening when women say we want to keep female-only spaces. We are just saying that we can’t make any exceptions because it could endanger women and girls.

[quote Sally872]@MasterStef I think prisons and likely some other situations would have to be a separate consideration.

In the OP regarding colleague using female toilet I believe she should use the female toilet.[/quote]
This is interesting.
How do we draw this line?
If we say males can enter some female only spaces, how do we distinguish which ones they can enter and how do we reasonably argue against their entry to others?

@FelicityBeedle

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

this is terrible stuff women should have to protect themselves rather than have their needs met? In the case where a woman knew she might experience a trauma response confronted with a person with tattoos, she can try and make sense of her reactions with the knowledge that there is no logical or statistical association between tattoos and being violent. Whereas there is a statistical association between being male and being more likely (than a female) to be violent. And that, children, is why we need single sex provision

And, if more reasons were needed, allowing a transwoman to use women's toilets/changing rooms/sports teams/swimming sessions or whatever will exclude many religiously conservative women.
But who cares about them.

GCAcademic (quoting me here): "Note: male anatomy allows them to stand back and aim in the general direction, from a safe distance. Female anatomy requires a careful mince across the floor, undress while gathering all clothes into a ball, then the knee wobbling hover over the wee splattered seat

You can’t hover if you need to deal with a menstrual cup (or, at least, I can). This, in particular, is why I detest the piss-soaked unisex loos."

Exactly. The lazy capitulation of so many cafes, coffee shops and universities to this fuck-wittedness boils my piss.

'Amusingly', looking at unis for DS2, we visited Leeds Arts, 2 years ago, who have also swallowed the KoolAid.

I asked a young person ambassador where the nearest loo was (for me, dumpy 56 year old woman). He was a double for Olly Alexander, by the by, in every way.

He said 'Well, there are those' gesticulates nearby, gender-neutral with an explanatory inclusive note on the door, 'or those' - gesticulates further afield; 'They're the ones the girls use and they're much nicer' 😊

Straight men 100% understand the reason they don't go into women's' toilets is not because they are a predator themselves and not because any particular woman things they are. It's because there is no way for other people (women) to know who is a sexual predator or not. Also, they wouldn't want to make women uncomfortable.

It's weird that people that don't really seem to like women very much or care how they feel are also the ones repeatedly saying that they're being directly accused of being a sexual predator if entry is refused.

I can't believe this simple reasoning is difficult to grasp, so I'm left thinking that if someone is wilfully misinterpreting something so simple - why might that be?

@masterstef I must have mispoke again when I said spaces. Sorry for the confusion.

Generally for prisons and other spaces I think if we can guard against people claiming to be trans to gain access while allowing genuine trans people to live comfortably that is the balance. Not sure of the practicalities though. Personally I don't think access to toilets should be held up while the rest is ironed out.

@MrsWooster

Perhaps your management should be looking at providing third spaces for mixed sex use, then your T colleague could have a place where they are able to avoid confronting their dysphoria in the gents, and the women in your office can continue to have their legally assured single sex spaces

It wouldn’t be good enough. There is no validation to be had in using a unisex/third space.

I don't like sharing toilets with men - I really, really, hate unisex bathrooms. It's not because I think men are going to attack me, it's because I feel vulnerable bleeding. If you tear open a pad in the women's toilets, no one is going to care or judge you, because everyone in the women's toilets knows that sound is a normal sound.

If you're having some kind of malfunction, another woman will help you and keep her mouth shut because there's a girl code. If you've changed outfit and/or are styling your hair/makeup because there's a special event you're going to, another woman will tell you that you look great if you're having a wobble, and it won't be a sexualised comment.

If you're sobbing your little heart out because you just got the worst news of your life and want support (indicated by crying by the sink rather than in a cubicle), a woman will give you a hug, even if you've never spoken before and/or you hate each other normally.

Women's toilets are more than just places you go to urinate and defecate. They're places where we look after ourselves and each other.

When it comes to colleagues, you tend to know more about them than you should. If a colleague was transitioning from MTF, I'd probably know that she was genuinely taking steps to become a woman. It therefore wouldn't bother me.

I take issue with blokes taking the piss and randomly 'identifying' as a woman to get into our safe spaces without actually meaning it. Just saying you're a woman doesn't make you a woman. You have to either be biologically a woman and tick the box by default, or to mentally feel like a woman and as such, really mean that statement.

If someone is so unhappy with their birth sex that they are very obviously changing their appearance, then I will happily let them into the sanctuary of the women's toilets even though they don't have exactly the same hardships. They share enough of them to be welcomed in.

Generally for prisons and other spaces I think if we can guard against people claiming to be trans to gain access while allowing genuine trans people to live comfortably that is the balance.

And how do you suggest we differentiate between people “claiming” to be trans and “genuine” trans people?

Generally for prisons and other spaces I think if we can guard against people claiming to be trans to gain access while allowing genuine trans people to live comfortably that is the balance.

Sorry - I'm genuinely not trying to pile on, but to explore the arguments! - but there is no such thing as falsely claiming to be trans. If you say you are trans then you are trans. Otherwise you're proposing some sort of test - which would be completely unworkable and again, probably quite offensive. But what sort of thing would such a test involve? How you dress, how you look, whether you seem more feminine or masculine? It's a massive problematic can of worms and the current line is 'acceptance without exception', ergo, your identity is what you say you are.

Do you see any problems with this?

@Carriemac

Is there a special lanyard to support women's sex based rights ?

now THAT'S a good idea

A year ago, I would say have said sure. Use the ladies. It's the kind thing to do.

Now I know sex is a protected characteristic. For a reason. And exemptions exist. For reasons.

My boundaries are mine. Other women have different boundaries. Not mine or yours to give away.

Women who might have ptsd. Whose religion (also a protected characteristic) places certain requirements. Or because it makes a woman feel vulnerable.

It is not for these women (any women) to go elsewhere. They have rights too. It should not be bigoted to say that.

If a colleague was transitioning from MTF, I'd probably know that she was genuinely taking steps to become a woman. It therefore wouldn't bother me.

It'd be helpful if people could be clear about what they mean by 'transitioning'. Do you mean undergoing medical intervention, or asking to be called by typically female pronouns, or anything in between? It's never been completely clear to me what transitioning actually involves if it's not one of the small minority of trans people having drastic surgery.

@AngeloMysterioso

Generally for prisons and other spaces I think if we can guard against people claiming to be trans to gain access while allowing genuine trans people to live comfortably that is the balance.

And how do you suggest we differentiate between people “claiming” to be trans and “genuine” trans people?

And, is it not possible for “genuine” trans women to be sex offenders and a huge risk to women?

@Greenmarmalade

I think it’s wrong to assume somebody else is a sexual predator just because they’re transitioning

Of course. But that’s not what’s happening when women say we want to keep female-only spaces. We are just saying that we can’t make any exceptions because it could endanger women and girls.

Practically though, what do you suggest?

Most offices have male and female toilets with lots of cubicles, and one disabled toilet.

All employees need to use a toilet. You can't magic up a fourth toilet - the cost is disproportionate, and the landlord might not even grant permission anyway.

Not all disabled people need urgent access to a toilet, but some do - is it fair to them to occupy the toilet by non-disabled people because you would prefer for this?

In an ideal world, there would be enough toilets for everyone to have their own personal one. In the real world, that won't happen, so you need to have a plan for what to do with the resources you have. I'd say the simple answer is for people to use the toilets that match their biological sex unless they've made a disclosure to HR.

@AngeloMysterioso I don't know. That is the difficulty. But I don't think saying transwomen have to stick to male toilets is the answer.

I think most male predators have plenty of opportunity without having to pretend to be trans.

@Changemusthappen

Just tell your firm, who I would be willing to bet money on have mostly men in management, that if a man can use the womens toilets then it works the other way.

I think things have potential to change very rapidly and until this starts to impact men so they sit up and take notice, womens rights are going to continue to be eroded at a fast pace.

I never understood why the police were called at the bathing pools in London since the women were just using the mens pool because they identified at men. Why did they get removed when the transwomen were allowed to continue to use the womens pools?

Yes! That really annoyed me. How could they not see the double standards?

@Changemusthappen, I'm not 100% sure on this but I think there is a third mixed sex pool, so I wonder why the trans women couldn't just use that instead of using the women's pool anyway?