Does it make someone a LGBTQ ally if they wear the pride lanyard but object when a transgender person uses their restroom ?

[thecatmother]

In my workplace we are very open and inclusive and many colleagues chose to wear their IDs on the Pride lanyards and are very active participants in all the Pride related events.
So far so peaceful, or so I thought, we had a new colleague joining recently, it is a lady who is transitioning from being born a man. She is very polite and just gets on with her work and day. I wasn't surprised to see her using the Ladies, unfortunately a number of my colleagues have formed an opinion about that. The management has been supporting the new colleague, and they held "conversations " with the complaining parties.
However, those people are still wearing their Pride lanyards, I can't get my head around that. The lanyards are purely on volunteer basis, we have generic ones. I generally wonder whether they actually realise that being an ally is not about getting drunk on Pride , but actually to be supportive to the people of LGBTQ.

I'm saying everyone is entitled to sex based facilities for dignity and safety.

My concern is for women's safety. That's it. As I don't perceive a risk to men, and transmen are able to choose and risk assess the situation for themselves.

Erikrie I am saying that these factors further strengthen the need for sex segregation, not weaken it.

I'm saying everyone should use the facilities for their sex. Always, without exception.

I do have concern for women's safety.
However, recognising men may not want female bodied in their spaces doesn't negate that.
Dignity and safety is easily achieved by sex segregation. A third space can of course be campaigned for, but the safety and dignity implications would have to be considered carefully.
I don't want to wash my moon cup put with men there and I don't think men are comfortable at urinals if women are there. And yes, safety is obviously the priority, but it's not the only factor.

@Imasoulman, I'm slightly surprised you said early to mid 80's but I'll leave it there.

How are women to tell whether a male in the female toilets absolutely has no ulterior motive from one who absolutely does have an ulterior motive? If you let one male in, how do you prevent any other male coming in? It is salami slicing of basic safeguarding.

The Cambridge Rapist preyed on women in colleges in Cambridge in the 1970's, now how did he gain access to the female only colleges to carry out his raping? Yes, that's right he dressed as a woman to go unnoticed. Put you and him side by side in the female toilets what are the signs that one of you has an ulterior motive?

Female spaces and services are for the safety, privacy and dignity of female. We too just want to pee without feeling threatened, uncomfortable or on edge and the way to achieve that is to be absolute in the knowledge that the only other humans in there with us are females.

Why are male violence problems within male toilets, and I'm not convinced it is as wide a scale problem as is stated, pushed onto the shoulders of females to solve? Why are we deemed as having to protect males from the violence of other males? We've got enough trouble protecting ourselves from male violence without being used as human shields for other males as well.

@Erikrie

This would have been early to mid 80's when I was a teen

That's not the early to mid 80s I remember. People were very gender non conforming then, and many of the men I knew dressed in women's 'clothes' and presented as very traditionally feminine. This never stopped them using the male toilets. Ever.

It's not the early to mid eighties I remember either. All the GNC men I knew then used the male toilets always and without incident.

The employers might give more of a shit when women start having time off with frequent water infections because they have held their bladders all day or are unable to attend work when their periods are particularly heavy because they no longer feel safe using the toilet facilities.
They’ll give a shit when they’re financially impacted.
If I was one of the women at your work place, this is definitely the way I would be heading.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

The employers might give more of a shit when women start having time off with frequent water infections because they have held their bladders all day or are unable to attend work when their periods are particularly heavy because they no longer feel safe using the toilet facilities. They’ll give a shit when they’re financially impacted. If I was one of the women at your work place, this is definitely the way I would be heading.

I'm perimenopausal and dealing with horrendous flooding during my period. At the moment I can deal with this as there are suitable toilet facilities at work. However, we are about to move to a new building and if it turns out the provision is such that I can no longer deal with this in private or single-sex facilities, I will be taking it up with HR.

GCAcademic

Good for you! It’s a shame we have to go to such resorts to be listened to but, we’re women, so we should be used to it by now.

We too just want to pee without feeling threatened, uncomfortable or on edge and the way to achieve that is to be absolute in the knowledge that the only other humans in there with us are females.

Absolutely this.

I'm an LGB ally but I don't believe the DSD (I) want too be or should be included In The alphabet soup.
Trans ideology is very homophobic so I guess my question is how can you be an LGB ally yet support T?

@GuidonianHand

I'm very pleased to hear that management are supporting your colleague. I hope it is very strong and genuine support. A trans friend was bullied out of work with a certain amount of support from management. To the degree that she was give a new position on a different site but the gossip followed her.

By supporting the transwoman’s access to women’s spaces, the management are choosing to prioritise the wants of a male over the needs of females. Plus ça change.

@Imasoulman

This would have been early to mid 80's when I was a teen. You have to understand that I had absolutely no ulterior motive. All I ever wanted was to blend in and go unnoticed.

Height of the gender bending glory. None of my male gender bending, ultra feminine or transvestite friends ever used the female loos.

We were all very happy to confound societal expectations around gender stereotypes. But not so keen on challenging sex based rights. Mainly because gender bending was a sex based phenomenon. It couldn't have worked had we not been a very certain about the sex based differences we were railing against.

@Erikrie

But when trans men and trans women have conflicting needs or wishes, we still have the problem of single-sex vs single-gender spaces

It doesn't need to be a problem. The needs of biological males and biological females are different. Thus, we don't need to treat them in exactly the same way to achieve fairness.

Biological women have unique needs and require certain safeguards from (some) biological males, not matter how they present. Therefore it is entirely appropriate for a woman's space to consist only of biological women including transmen (if they so wish). Biological men do not experience the same risks to their safety from women. Thus it would be appropriate to have a space for biological males however they present, including transwomen, and also transmen (if transmen so wished), as transmen pose no risk to men. A mixed sex /gender space in these circumstances would be fine.

Alternatively a third space (probably not practical for many places, and the disabled toilets cannot be considered an option) or, the men's toilets turned into a mixed sex / gender space. This is probably the best option all round, and it protects the spaces that help reduce the risks to biological women, which are present as a result of their biology. Not their gender. Those women who don't mind spaces like this have an option to use that, whilst for women who are concerned, well their single sex space is retained.

I agree with all of this. I was trying to highlight that 'what trans people want' isn't always single-gender spaces in all situations. Trans men get overlooked time and again!

I live in an ultra liberal city. I dehydrate myself if I know I have to go out for more than an hour or so - I deliberately do not drink anything so I do not have to use a public bathroom. When I last went in there was a guy in there, his only nod to femininity a pair of red high heels.
His right to wear heels and piss in a women's restroom outweighs my right to not be scared or intimidated? His right to get his kicks in the women's bathroom outweighs my right to drink and be hydrated? Why?
I don't give a fuck if men are scared of other men. We are scared of men too. If you don't like the reaction...I really could not give a damn, at least a man has a reasonable chance of defending himself against another men. I am so sick of this shit.
Trans identified males are not women's problem. We are not safe with them in our spaces.

Detroit, it's good to hear from you. I'm sorry about the guy in heels. Hope you are managing to work around it.

I don't drink anything if I have to go out...that's my work around. There are no women's bathrooms. Hello! Nice to see you too!

I honestly think I'd go in the men's room if I had to in that situation, because ironically the worse creeps probably aren't there any more.

I am not messing with men in the bathroom. I will not be vulnerable - more vulnerable and in a private space with men. So if I go out, I don't drink until I'm back. It is shit, but trans identified men's rights to get their kicks in the women's room and to 'safety' from other men, are clearly more important than women's needs or rights.

Thank you for coming and saying that soulman.

Tbf I can understand why a 16 yo would be scared in those circs.

Tbh though the problem is male violence, male ideas about what men should be, and homophobia.

This fact is never even slightly hinted at being addressed.

The answer is always men will be violent what can you do.

Which is a very unsatisfactory answer for feminists! Of course there are things society can do. Which would help everyone.

The fact that other sorts of men are at risk from men in general is also never addressed. One group gets to opt into the women's stuff (meaning God only knows who can access it as well) and other groups continue to get kicked in if they are unlucky in who they cross paths with.

The 'solution' helps only one small group, does nothing to help others from the same risks, and increased risk to women and girls.

The fact none of that is ever engaged with says a lot. It's LBBT+. homophobic men attack men who are gay/ or they think are gay. Why no concern for them in all this.

Glad to hear you are keeping on keeping on. More power to you.

Lovely to see you, Detroit. Been ages.

Good to see you Detroit.

One of the many things that really pisses me off with this opening up of female single sex toilets, etc., is that when someone such as soulman or the TW from the opening post says they feel threatened and too frightened to use the male toilets the reaction is Oh poor you, how terrible, there, there, of course you shouldn't have to be frightened yet when a woman says I don't want to/can't use toilets unless they are unequivocally single sex as I have been a victim of abuse by men the reaction is fuck off with your transphobia you bigot, just get over your trauma, stop weaponising your trauma.

Men - you must be kept safe, your feelings must be catered for.
Women - suck it up, no-one gives a toss about your safety or feelings, there are men to consider.

Same shit, different day.

@RedDogsBeg

Good to see you Detroit.

One of the many things that really pisses me off with this opening up of female single sex toilets, etc., is that when someone such as soulman or the TW from the opening post says they feel threatened and too frightened to use the male toilets the reaction is Oh poor you, how terrible, there, there, of course you shouldn't have to be frightened yet when a woman says I don't want to/can't use toilets unless they are unequivocally single sex as I have been a victim of abuse by men the reaction is fuck off with your transphobia you bigot, just get over your trauma, stop weaponising your trauma.

Men - you must be kept safe, your feelings must be catered for.
Women - suck it up, no-one gives a toss about your safety or feelings, there are men to consider.

Same shit, different day.

I absolutely agree. I just can’t get my head around how so many women are complicit in it!

@Erikrie

This would have been early to mid 80's when I was a teen

That's not the early to mid 80s I remember. People were very gender non conforming then, and many of the men I knew dressed in women's 'clothes' and presented as very traditionally feminine. This never stopped them using the male toilets. Ever.

There is a huge difference between young men following a fashion trend which involved wearing blouses and make up and actually going out dressed and trying to "be" a girl. I have already said that in this day and age I would have been seeking out unisex facilities and really hope that become more common place along side single sex facilities.