Does it make someone a LGBTQ ally if they wear the pride lanyard but object when a transgender person uses their restroom ?

[thecatmother]

In my workplace we are very open and inclusive and many colleagues chose to wear their IDs on the Pride lanyards and are very active participants in all the Pride related events.
So far so peaceful, or so I thought, we had a new colleague joining recently, it is a lady who is transitioning from being born a man. She is very polite and just gets on with her work and day. I wasn't surprised to see her using the Ladies, unfortunately a number of my colleagues have formed an opinion about that. The management has been supporting the new colleague, and they held "conversations " with the complaining parties.
However, those people are still wearing their Pride lanyards, I can't get my head around that. The lanyards are purely on volunteer basis, we have generic ones. I generally wonder whether they actually realise that being an ally is not about getting drunk on Pride , but actually to be supportive to the people of LGBTQ.

OP if there are 2 loos and have to make one every-sex, ask if it can be the men’s. Seems the best compromise. Some theatres do this.

Nicegerbil -

"What sector in the UK is.
All white and Christian
Very supportive of trans employees
Has mental health screening before confirming a job offer
That delves into whether you were sexually abused as a child
And no matter what you experience competency is etc
Will withdraw the job offer because they assume you have mental health problems"

Apart from the first line and the 'Very' in the second - I think ordination would qualify, although a job offer would not be withdrawn for mental health problems. A job might be, however, further down the line. Possibly also children's therapists?

I've no idea why trans rights is lumped in with LGB rights. It's like putting Black rights or animal rights in with it. They are separate issues. A trans person could be gay, straight or bi, bring trans doesn't impact their sexuality.

Sorry if I offended anyone last night, I made in retrospect a crass tongue in cheek comment concerning the definition of "woman"
Obviously it came across as insulting but that was not my intention.

BiBabbles, this is so true, and bears repeating.
In some present cases, certain role examples you gave below, still want to believe that their status should put them above the safeguarding:

"And your focus on the person being shy and "normal" reminds me of remarks of decades past where priests and pastors and teachers and doctors couldn't possibly be rapists because they were so quiet and considerate, they do so much for the community, and don'cha just know how those deliquents are, so rude, no respect, can't believe a word they say..."

Just to say re unisex provision, yes, it absolutely could happen.

We're talking about government funded lobby groups, extremely wealthy ones, extremely wealthy donors, direct ear of parliament and many influential groups, the ability to get issues straight into parliament - which is why many GC women are here, because there's been no consideration of women's needs and issues and rights in doing so.

But the point is, if that lobby and all it's might wanted additional unisex facilities, they could very easily campaign for this and get it. It took the disabled lobby decades, and it did eventually happen. There was no money for disabled/accessible loos, no space, huge resistance, but it went into law and funding grants were made available and new build requirements were set and counties supported and enforced that it was going to happen regardless of complaints, and it did.

The lobby in question has way more power, way more money, way more government influence and enthusiasm, and women's groups would get right behind this too. If it was wanted, it would happen and it would take a year or two before major change was visible in most places, and five to just be the fixed norm, as with disabled toilets.

But there is a reason this is not a wanted solution, but male people using female single sex provisions is. That elephant has to be addressed.

@Imasoulman

Sorry if I offended anyone last night, I made in retrospect a crass tongue in cheek comment concerning the definition of "woman" Obviously it came across as insulting but that was not my intention.

Apology appreciated.

However, the comment didn't come across as insulting it was insulting and shows just how hard wired is the belief that men are not only the default humans but superior in every way. You described women as what they are not and then doubled down with the repulsive tits and vagina descriptor. This view of women is so deeply embedded that you personally went straight to it when asked for a definition of woman.

It came as little surprise to me that you think like this because your previous actions demonstrated it perfectly. You say you 'passed' as a woman in your youth and you didn't want to use the male toilets so you arbitrarily decided that you would use the female toilets, you gave zero thought or consideration to women when you did this, as a male you deemed it your right to do as you wanted. You didn't ask how the women felt about it, you didn't care. As the default, superior human why would you? Entitlement and selfishness in bucket loads.

Women, the weaker, lesser sex utilised as your human shield.

@nolongersurprised

These posters all follow the same pattern.

New TRA poster:
I have a lovely child/friend who is a transwomen. They wouldn’t hurt a fly and just want to pee. I am welcoming them with open arms into female spaces and so should you.

Women: no, TW are men. They shouldn’t be in female spaces. For privacy, dignity, cultural and religious reasons we want single sex spaces. Not all of us feel as strongly about this as others, but we empathise with those who do.

TRA : they are women

Women: no, they are male, by definition. What about campaigning for 3rd spaces?

TRA : no it has to be women’s spaces, that women have fought for, that belong to women.
Stop being so paranoid, TW won’t hurt you, it never happens.

Women: actually it has happened (cites examples)

TRA: well, you can’t stop male violence so you should just give in to more of it.
This is EXACTLY like racism, homophobia. TW are THE most oppressed and victimised group ever. Be kind. Where is your humanity?

Women: we are subjected to sexual violence from childhood. We are sexually assaulted, physically assaulted and raped and murdered by men.

TRA : transphobic bigots

This is an absolute perfect summary of what happens here.

@Erikrie

I don't think a single transman has been sent to a male prison. Not in the UK anyway. There's a reason for that. And transmen don't present the same risks to women (as biological women themselves) that transwomen potentially do (as biological males). Thus no issue with them using women's facilities (as is the case already in prisons) a third space, or using the men's facilities.

It's a real puzzler why the numbers of TW to TM in prisons is so markedly different isn't it? Even more puzzling is the nature of the crimes the TW are convicted of. I just can't work out why that would be.

@RedDogsBeg

Slightly out of context but I do accept your point re my comment.

As far as using the ladies when I was younger goes, I was always very conscious that it was not ideal and would only use them when if I was really desperate.

I certainly didn't feel I had some pre determined right to be there.
In all honesty in those days I really had no alternative.
Today I would search out unisex facilities, which I would really like to see along side single sex facilities.

I was never trying to access changing rooms, compete in women's sport or anything else, I just needed to pee without getting beaten up.

This is an absolute perfect summary of what happens here.

Ha. Every single time.

But I’m very glad there are posters here who patiently respond to all the points made, every time. These posters, fighting for women’s rights are having an effect. Years ago I had the opinion, ‘be nice to trans people, let trans women in women’s toilets, what harm are they doing, they just want to pee in the toilet, no harm done’. Reading on here, and other places, as well as seeing things my children were being exposed to online, I am now firmly in the ‘women need single sex spaces’ camp. So, these threads may be like Groundhog Day, but by seeing posters respond with excellent points and examples, people like me are seeing quite how harmful all this is.

You didn't ask how the women felt about it, you didn't care

It is like that video of the teenaged male transitioner that gets posted here lately as a 'gotcha, look at all the lovely girls supporting that trans girl'. And that teenager states something like, 'maybe some younger girls, but what could they do? Nothing'.

Male socialisation starts from birth.

[quote Imasoulman]@RedDogsBeg

Slightly out of context but I do accept your point re my comment.

As far as using the ladies when I was younger goes, I was always very conscious that it was not ideal and would only use them when if I was really desperate.

I certainly didn't feel I had some pre determined right to be there.
In all honesty in those days I really had no alternative.
Today I would search out unisex facilities, which I would really like to see along side single sex facilities.

I was never trying to access changing rooms, compete in women's sport or anything else, I just needed to pee without getting beaten up.

[/quote]
Your solution to your problem was to use toilets not designated for your use irrespective of the effect that would have on those for whom the toilets were designated.

When were 'those days' you refer to? GNC men have been using men's toilets without incident throughout my lifetime.

I'm a straight white woman. I stand side by side with any woman, regardless of colour or creed. I'm not bothered particularly by men in my toilets, but others are, so they should be respected.

I will always be polite to transwomen, because they are male and I am female. I am socialised to be so. I'm also scared that I could be fired from my job for saying that sex means something, the words men and women mean something.

Have a read through of the pinned tweet here OP to see what some transwomen are getting up to in women/s toilets and changing rooms and just general open areas near children.

For every transwoman just trying to live their life, there seems to be at least one getting off on the exhibitionism and specifically making women uncomfortable around them.

@Helleofabore

You didn't ask how the women felt about it, you didn't care

It is like that video of the teenaged male transitioner that gets posted here lately as a 'gotcha, look at all the lovely girls supporting that trans girl'. And that teenager states something like, 'maybe some younger girls, but what could they do? Nothing'.

Male socialisation starts from birth.

Yes, nobody's going to convince me that someone who's grown up with all the benefits of patriarchy (& biology) EVER qualifies as 'most oppressed'.

Leaving aside the 'I must be the centre of attention' aspect of narcissism which in some cases leads to self-iding as most oppressed, it seems to me that men (a) don't experience what women & girls experience, so don't understand how our lives are, (b) see a man leaving the group of men & living as a woman & have strong feelings of how it would make THEM feel to do that - without, obviously, having the inner complusion/need to do it - & therefore (c) only empathise with what they think a TW goes through, ignoring what women & girls go through. If living as a woman is the worst thing they can think of for themselves then - hey presto! - a man who does just that must be the most oppressed & suffering person ever. All based on ignorance.

I'm guessing, of course, never having been a man. And there's always the 'let's stick it to women/feminists' aspect, which is basically bullying, sneering & taking the p*ss.

I'm very pleased to hear that management are supporting your colleague. I hope it is very strong and genuine support. A trans friend was bullied out of work with a certain amount of support from management. To the degree that she was give a new position on a different site but the gossip followed her.

This would have been early to mid 80's when I was a teen.
You have to understand that I had absolutely no ulterior motive. All I ever wanted was to blend in and go unnoticed.

Sorry below was in reply to @RedDogsBeg

But when trans men and trans women have conflicting needs or wishes, we still have the problem of single-sex vs single-gender spaces

It doesn't need to be a problem. The needs of biological males and biological females are different. Thus, we don't need to treat them in exactly the same way to achieve fairness.

Biological women have unique needs and require certain safeguards from (some) biological males, not matter how they present. Therefore it is entirely appropriate for a woman's space to consist only of biological women including transmen (if they so wish). Biological men do not experience the same risks to their safety from women. Thus it would be appropriate to have a space for biological males however they present, including transwomen, and also transmen (if transmen so wished), as transmen pose no risk to men. A mixed sex /gender space in these circumstances would be fine.

Alternatively a third space (probably not practical for many places, and the disabled toilets cannot be considered an option) or, the men's toilets turned into a mixed sex / gender space. This is probably the best option all round, and it protects the spaces that help reduce the risks to biological women, which are present as a result of their biology. Not their gender. Those women who don't mind spaces like this have an option to use that, whilst for women who are concerned, well their single sex space is retained.

This would have been early to mid 80's when I was a teen

That's not the early to mid 80s I remember. People were very gender non conforming then, and many of the men I knew dressed in women's 'clothes' and presented as very traditionally feminine. This never stopped them using the male toilets. Ever.

Thus it would be appropriate to have a space for biological males however they present, including transwomen, and also transmen (if transmen so wished), as transmen pose no risk to men.

This doesn't take into account men are entitled to privacy and dignity as well. I'm sure plenty of men at the urinals would feel uncomfortable with this.

Plus even if the trans man doesn't consider their safety priority, there's still a risk. How sympathetic do we think police who already victim blame rape victims for dress and drinking alcohol will be to someone who puts themselves in that situation?

This doesn't take into account men are entitled to privacy and dignity as well. I'm sure plenty of men at the urinals would feel uncomfortable with this.

The physical risks to women far outweigh the loss of dignity to men.

What did I want in the 80s?
For people to stop making assumptions on my brain based on my body

For people to take me as me , not a bubble brained sex object

Plus even if the trans man doesn't consider their safety priority, there's still a risk. How sympathetic do we think police who already victim blame rape victims for dress and drinking alcohol will be to someone who puts themselves in that situation?

And that can be applied directly back to biological males, (regardless of their identity,) using women's sex segregated spaces. No?. Except that women don't get a choice over this.

I'm saying everyone is entitled to sex based facilities for dignity and safety.

That means no men on the ladies, no women in then men's.

No gender excuses, no it's and buys or coconuts.