Does it make someone a LGBTQ ally if they wear the pride lanyard but object when a transgender person uses their restroom ?

[thecatmother]

In my workplace we are very open and inclusive and many colleagues chose to wear their IDs on the Pride lanyards and are very active participants in all the Pride related events.
So far so peaceful, or so I thought, we had a new colleague joining recently, it is a lady who is transitioning from being born a man. She is very polite and just gets on with her work and day. I wasn't surprised to see her using the Ladies, unfortunately a number of my colleagues have formed an opinion about that. The management has been supporting the new colleague, and they held "conversations " with the complaining parties.
However, those people are still wearing their Pride lanyards, I can't get my head around that. The lanyards are purely on volunteer basis, we have generic ones. I generally wonder whether they actually realise that being an ally is not about getting drunk on Pride , but actually to be supportive to the people of LGBTQ.

This is absolutely not the right place to ask the question OP. Mumsnet is known to be hostile to trans people, which is why some large companies have withdrawn advertising.

Your colleague sounds nice, just treat her as you would anyone else.

This is absolutely not the right place to ask the question OP. Mumsnet is known to be hostile to trans people, which is why some large companies have withdrawn advertising. Oooh! Can we pick that apart please?

Trans hostile - including the trans posters? Or pro womens rights?

You can come and say that and we will respond with data. You won't be deleted. Wonder why? Oh! Maybe it's because this is actually a fairly safe, if ever more restricted, place to discuss issues that get you shouted down and vilified elsewhere.

Here you just get lots and lost of facts, information, examples and honest engagement.

Advertising being pulled - you only have to look at ONE, ANY ONE, of those and you will see the truth. The nasty, vindictive blackmail of some corporations. Not by women.

And the one/s that responded with a cheery "potato"

And yet threecharacters we have trans people who post here regularly.

Perhaps you read too much from other commentators on other social media platforms to make an unbiased claim. Or you have read an article on what is ‘transphobia’ that states that any person who thinks that there is a conflict between trans rights and women’s rights is hateful ? Or that stating there are two sexes is just as bad?

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo

He then followed it up by saying heisweird. But not because of his sexuality, he's weird because he's him

So many of the best people are!

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo

He then followed it up by saying heisweird. But not because of his sexuality, he's weird because he's him

So many of the best people are!

His best friend from primary school told me once " is the weirdest person I've ever met. Until I met you."

It seems it runs in our family.

ThreeCharacters

This is absolutely not the right place to ask the question OP. Mumsnet is known to be hostile to trans people, which is why some large companies have withdrawn advertising.

Known by whom? For example, is it "known" by people who are hostile to lesbians and gay men who don't like to be called "queer"? Should we trust their judgement? That's a discussion we've just been having.

Is it "known" by the people who call Muslim women "bigots" when they explain their particular religious needs for single-sex spaces? Should we trust their judgement?

^
Your colleague sounds nice, just treat her as you would anyone else.^

Sounds good to me. Male toilets it is then.

This is absolutely not the right place to ask the question OP. Mumsnet is known to be hostile to trans people, which is why some large companies have withdrawn advertising.

Disagreeing with people is not hostility. How precious are some people that the mere presence of debate and questioning means hostility to them. There's plenty of trans people that post on here. And sometimes we can be in agreement about things.

Your colleague sounds nice, just treat her as you would anyone else

How on earth would you know if the colleague is nice or not? The op has barely said anything about them. Unless of course you think being trans = being nice. Do you? 🤨

[quote ChiefBabySniffer]@Waitwhat23

I totally agree but if gender dysphoria is so intense that a man that feels like a woman is triggered so violently by the idea of using the men's toilets, one could argue that it is indeed disability. Trans people do not take hormones and occasionally have genital surgery for fun, it's because of a psychiatric illness. [/quote]
Female people with Autism, Alzheimers, PTSD/trauma and anxiety, also count as having a disability, and may be violently triggered by the presence of someone they perceive as male in a single sex space.

Do we care about all people who may be violently triggered and require careful thought about provision to meet their needs?

Or are we just saying people born male are always more important than anyone born female? Because that's not inclusion, it's something else entirely.

@ThreeCharacters

This is absolutely not the right place to ask the question OP. Mumsnet is known to be hostile to trans people, which is why some large companies have withdrawn advertising.

Your colleague sounds nice, just treat her as you would anyone else.

MN is not any such thing, and we are not a monolith.

Your second point, well obviously. Treat them like any other male bodied person using the womens bathrooms. And outside of that, be as nice to them as you would anyone else. Anyone else also including all the women who don't want males in their single sex spaces, try being nice to them too.

You can be supportive to transgender people without having to give up your right to single-sex spaces.

Surely having a view does not mean hostile. We live in a society where people are allowed an opinion.

@TheChild

You can be supportive to transgender people without having to give up your right to single-sex spaces.

No, that's not possible. It has to be all or nothing. You're either an ally or you're anti-trans.

To clarify: that's not my attitude but it's certainly what I've observed.

Those of you who are so eager to let male bodies into female spaces, can I ask what you think might happen to those who genuinely cannot share space with males for :

Cultural
Religious
Safeguarding
Trauma

reasons?

Off the top of my head I can think of four women of my acquaintance and one of my daughter's friends who fit this category. At work I meet several every day. By including male bodies in spaces they use (including toilets) it means that they just won't come, they won't complain or speak up they just stop coming. Some are vulnerable to family pressure.

They not only lose social interaction but also healthcare, benefits advice, language help, psychological support and often a degree of freedom. They also lose in smaller ways e.g. one space is in a library. The library changed the main toilets to unisex. So the women line up for the one separate disabled toilet on the floor which means they can be there for twenty minutes waiting rather than in and out in two. Pretty shit for the disabled users too.

For all the 'shut up and be kind' I don't see much empathy or kindness to these women.

Unfortunately so, which is doing a disservice to many transgender people who don't agree with the transcult ideology (and many of those people shouting "no debate" are not even trans, just "allies" who are harming transgender rights)

@RedDogsBeg

What kind of person changes the disabled toilets in a work place to accommodate someone who is perfectly able and at no risk using the toilets designated for their sex?

What kind of person changes the female single sex toilets to gender neutral in a work place to accommodate someone who is at no risk using the toilets designated for their sex?

What kind of person dismisses a sexual abuse survivor who wants the safety and comfort provided by single sex toilets being single sex?

What kind of person dismisses the needs of strict religious women for single sex toilets remaining single sex?

What kind of person rides roughshod over the other protected characteristics in the Equality Act?

and does all of that to assuage the feelings of and to pander to someone on the basis of some indescribable, unquantifiable feeling that bears no relation to reality?

I know what I would call that kind of person.

There is nothing inclusive, progressive, liberal or indeed kind in doing any of the above.

This should be archived somewhere for when the usual suspects get this thread deleted on grounds of exposing wilful ignorance, lack of empathy, and misogyny.

I thought this was a brilliant post from @MasterStef

But in the example of prisons, a trans man might want to be in a female-sex prison (ie mixed gender identities) and the trans woman might want to be in a female-gender prison (ie mixed sex). Only one would be able to get what they feel is best for themselves because the presence of the opposite sex stops a space being single-sex, and the presence of the opposite gender identity stops that space being single-gender.

Who should 'win' here where they are in conflict?

But they are women, Moonsick. They can suck it up. Besides, they need to get over it and come to terms with their hang ups. Otherwise it's just weaponising their trauma.

Erikrie

How on earth would you know if the colleague is nice or not? The op has barely said anything about them. Unless of course you think being trans = being nice. Do you?

I think you might be on to something.... We are all missing this big time. Women = not the nice people and have to constantly atone for not being the 'nice' people by being 'extra' nice and turn a blind eye to the truth.

For all the 'shut up and be kind' I don't see much empathy or kindness to these women.

This is what exactly what happens when the trope that is rolled out includes false equivalences of women needing same sex spaces to racism. Those who need the same sex spaces are told they have to 'get over it' so that the male person who doesn't have to 'get over it' can enter the space.

It is not hard to understand why this is an issue if you start to look at it through the eyes of a woman who needs the space to remain as a female only space. But it does take understanding that anything else is misogynistic and that is not easy to admit when you look in the mirror.

Women = not the nice people and have to constantly atone for not being the 'nice' people by being 'extra' nice and turn a blind eye to the truth.

Not to mention that being born with a vagina means you are everybody's mummy and a support human/service human. Nice women put everyone else before themselves. Mummy eats when everyone else has had the lions share.

Very sexist, very sex based thinking underpins so very much of this, even when at the same time it's being stated that sex isn't a thing and no one can know what sex anyone is. Somehow no one who believes this has the slightest trouble identifying the group who should be the service providers.

I think it goes like this.

Transwomen = nice ♥️♥️♥️
Feminist' cis women allies = nice ♥️♥️
Male cis allies = nice ♥️
Transwomen who support women's rights =not nice. 😡
Men who support women's rights = Not nice.😡
GC feminists = not nice😡😡😡
Women who support woman's rights = not nice😡😡😡

Hmm, looks at above list again. Have I missed anything?🤔

Erikrie, I don’t think that is true.

I support women’s rights but I identify as nice.
I think nice means different things to different people.

It is gate keeping to exclude anyone’s internal feeling of being nice and not validate that they are feeling that they are nice and therefore are nice. If if you think that it is a circular definition it is just because you are a bigot and doesn’t understand better.

Because I identify as nice I can say that women need their own toilets. And sports. And prisons. And hospital wards. And don’t you dare invalidate me by saying that I not am nice. That would hurt my feelings .

I'm not sure you get to choose what is and isn't nice woolofbat. I'm sorry. But that's just how it is. Please try to be a little understanding here...

As a disabled person, I hate that being offered as an alternative to transwomen especially if I can't get in when I need it.
Being trans is not a disability either.

Absolutely. I'm disabled too. I don't use the disabled loos to validate myself. I use them because I need them and taking away our toilets is taking away our ability to participate in life as we have no other option available to us. TW have the option to use the gents.

And one more thought. This lady is the first transgender person that I have ever met, therefore I treat her with respect, just like I would another human being. I am in my mid 40s.
It makes me wonder , how many of people so vehemently protesting here have actually met a person (male or female) who is in their transition, and would you treat them with such hostility...

Congratulations on meeting your first transperson, I know 5, do I win?

I supported an ex partner through social, medical, surgical and legal transition many years ago. They were and remain one of the best people I've ever met. They were quite "normal", not sure if you're surprised by that yourself or think you are contributing to the education of the rest of us. I've been on many holidays with them over the years and shared a room, presumably you would be happy to do the same now that I've told you how lovely they are.

Why would you imagine women defending their rights would behave in a hostile way to trans people or do you think women asserting their boundaries is an act of hostility in itself? Other women's boundaries are not mine or yours to give away.

You don't seem very up to date about what it means to be trans in 2021, as many posters have pointed out all it takes is someone's say so. No diagnosis of gender dysphoria, no alteration of appearance, no living as a woman (whatever the hell that means). The trans umbrella includes cross dressers and drag queens, neither of which have historically claim a gender identity disorder. It means acceptance without exception, I wonder if you fully comprehend what that means. I could give you a list of people no one would want in women's single sex spaces but under self ID you'd have a hard job refusing them and at the moment self ID is being implemented in many places despite the fact that no laws have changed. Would you want to share single sex spaces with Barbie Kardashian for example? If not, why not. Remember acceptance without exception.

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-teen-charged-with-making-death-threats-against-two-individuals/

Barbie has been assessed by a qualified professional and was not diagnosed with gender dysphoria but because they say they are a woman they are now being housed in a womens prison. How do you think the other inmates feel about that? Presumably you think they are just being transphobic. Acceptance without exception.

I think someone suggested earlier that nothing but total capitulation will do but in reality even that is not enough. See this video of the treatment handed out to a trans inclusive organisation.