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Does it make someone a LGBTQ ally if they wear the pride lanyard but object when a transgender person uses their restroom ?

793 replies

thecatmother · 11/05/2021 20:29

In my workplace we are very open and inclusive and many colleagues chose to wear their IDs on the Pride lanyards and are very active participants in all the Pride related events.
So far so peaceful, or so I thought, we had a new colleague joining recently, it is a lady who is transitioning from being born a man. She is very polite and just gets on with her work and day. I wasn't surprised to see her using the Ladies, unfortunately a number of my colleagues have formed an opinion about that. The management has been supporting the new colleague, and they held "conversations " with the complaining parties.
However, those people are still wearing their Pride lanyards, I can't get my head around that. The lanyards are purely on volunteer basis, we have generic ones. I generally wonder whether they actually realise that being an ally is not about getting drunk on Pride , but actually to be supportive to the people of LGBTQ.

OP posts:
LalalalalalaLand123 · 12/05/2021 13:50

@Mumsnet why are you deleting biscuit emojis?

I fully support LGB rights to have same-SEX relationships.
I fully support women's (and men's) rights to single-SEX facilities.

Waitwhat23 · 12/05/2021 14:39

When disabled toilets are redesigned as accessible, it means that they are available for use for anyone with a disability, visible or not. It's not a general free for all for everyone, it's to be inclusive of everyone with a disability. Grace's Signs are quite often the new door signs used in order to show this.

There should be third spaces not a take over of spaces for people with disabilities.

Ormally · 12/05/2021 14:47

"Really glad that I don’t have to wear a rainbow lanyard for this reason.... does NOT wearing one in workplaces that require you to wear one get interpreted as being ANTI alphabet soup???"

Looks like it.
Work also gave us cloth masks that are branded, as we need to wear them at work. There are several distinct sites to the workplace and if you were walking round with the (workplace-issued) rainbow lanyard which was in support of LGBTQ etc, and the branded mask, you wouldn't be questioned in terms of security, as this says 'I was given this staff-issued stuff'. If you don't have a rainbow lanyard, I don't think there are many others about unless you had one from times before it was purchased, and obviously you can wear a mask of your choice.
Seems such a step further to judge more deeply on the basis of it, yet I can definitely think of situations where not having the 2 things above would (rightly or wrongly) lead to people questioning to see other staff ID depending on where you were.

Ormally · 12/05/2021 14:48

"Really glad that I don’t have to wear a rainbow lanyard for this reason.... does NOT wearing one in workplaces that require you to wear one get interpreted as being ANTI alphabet soup???"

Looks like it.
Work also gave us cloth masks that are branded, as we need to wear them at work. There are several distinct sites to the workplace and if you were walking round with the (workplace-issued) rainbow lanyard which was in support of LGBTQ etc, and the branded mask, you wouldn't be questioned in terms of security, as this says 'I was given this staff-issued stuff'. If you don't have a rainbow lanyard, I don't think there are many others about unless you had one from times before it was purchased, and obviously you can wear a mask of your choice.
Seems such a step further to judge more deeply on the basis of it, yet I can definitely think of situations where not having the 2 things above would (rightly or wrongly) lead to people questioning to see other staff ID depending on where you were.

Ormally · 12/05/2021 14:58

"Really glad that I don’t have to wear a rainbow lanyard for this reason.... does NOT wearing one in workplaces that require you to wear one get interpreted as being ANTI alphabet soup???"

Looks like it.
Work also gave us cloth masks that are branded, as we need to wear them at work. There are several distinct sites to the workplace and if you were walking round with the (workplace-issued) rainbow lanyard which was in support of LGBTQ etc, and the branded mask, you wouldn't be questioned in terms of security, as this says 'I was given this staff-issued stuff'. If you don't have a rainbow lanyard, I don't think there are many others about unless you had one from times before it was purchased, and obviously you can wear a mask of your choice.
Seems such a step further to judge more deeply on the basis of it, yet I can definitely think of situations where not having the 2 things above would (rightly or wrongly) lead to people questioning to see other staff ID depending on where you were.

ChiefBabySniffer · 12/05/2021 15:13

@Waitwhat23

I totally agree but if gender dysphoria is so intense that a man that feels like a woman is triggered so violently by the idea of using the men's toilets, one could argue that it is indeed disability. Trans people do not take hormones and occasionally have genital surgery for fun, it's because of a psychiatric illness.

BiBabbles · 12/05/2021 15:18

The real support is acceptance of peoples choices and differences without the need to wear a badge.

No, real support would be systemic changes to enable conversations about conflicting needs and funding to put in appropriate facilities for everyone's safety. "Acceptance" isn't support, it generally means very little.

I would be thrilled if more places could be reconfigured so there were enough accessible toilets so everyone could use one in places that were more visible and safe -- I've seen a few places that have prioritised that and it's wonderful, my favourite place had large accessible toilets right off the main area and it just felt so well thought out, but that's not where most places are at right now. In the vast majority of places, accessible toilets are quite limited, too often a target for vandalism which is why RADAR keys are so important, and are hard fought for to enable disabled people to access to wider world so probably best not to treat them as a catch-all for everyone before fighting for there to be enough of them to do that.

RedDogsBeg · 12/05/2021 15:57

[quote ChiefBabySniffer]@Waitwhat23

I totally agree but if gender dysphoria is so intense that a man that feels like a woman is triggered so violently by the idea of using the men's toilets, one could argue that it is indeed disability. Trans people do not take hormones and occasionally have genital surgery for fun, it's because of a psychiatric illness. [/quote]
You'll get accused of transphobia for that comment. In this Brave New World no hormones, surgery or psychiatry are required, just saying you feel like a woman is enough.

Waitwhat23 · 12/05/2021 16:21

Accessible toilets are designed to give people more space (to have an assistant in
the space, in order to maneuver wheelchairs, wash out colostomy bags, equipment etc) and also to provide specialist equipment (such as hoists and shower equipment). These spaces and equipment are important to allow people with a disability to access public spaces and should be specifically kept for their use. If someone is triggered due to gender disphoria and needs a safe space, the answer isn't to reduce the access to specialist space and equipment for people who need it - it is to provide another space, distinct from the male or female (or accessible) toilet. However, I have seen trans activists state that this is 'othering' so demand access to women's single sex spaces despite the fact that this may be triggering to the women using it.

caramelloo · 12/05/2021 16:29

No

Waitwhat23 · 12/05/2021 16:31

Accessible toilets are designed to give people more space (to have an assistant in
the space, in order to maneuver wheelchairs, wash out colostomy bags, equipment etc) and also to provide specialist equipment (such as hoists and shower equipment). These spaces and equipment are important to allow people with a disability to access public spaces and should be specifically kept for their use. If someone is triggered due to gender disphoria and needs a safe space, the answer isn't to reduce the access to specialist space and equipment for people who need it - it is to provide another space, distinct from the male or female (or accessible) toilet. However, I have seen trans activists state that this is 'othering' so demand access to women's single sex spaces despite the fact that this may be triggering to the women using it.

Also, RADAR keys are brilliant - we had a RADAR lock installed at a place I worked because the toilets were used regularly by members of the public who were injecting drugs and there were so many sharps left. The lock meant that people who had a key could use the toilet without fear of what had been left in there.

toocoldforsno · 12/05/2021 16:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Welcome2hateHolland · 12/05/2021 16:46

Do you have Muslim colleagues op?
Do you have colleagues who perhaps need privacy and dignity for medical reasons?
Do any of your colleagues use a mooncup?
Do any of your colleagues have past experiences that might make them uncomfortable around a male body that could overpower them?
Have you asked why they feel this way? Perhaps ask for answers before painting the whole world black and white/good and evil.
This is a nuanced debate, no matter how 'kind' you want to be there is a direct clash of women's rights with trans demands.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/05/2021 16:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn as it quotes a deleted post.

Erikrie · 12/05/2021 16:47

From living with my born-female child while they started their transition to male (which actually didn't happen in the end as they now know they are non-binary) I can fully appreciate this lady's need to use the ladies toilets. She is NOT male, only in the physical form.

There are only two sexes. Male and female. Both take a physical form. Gender is not sex. And female feelings do not trump biological reality. Sex segregated spaces are there to offer privacy to males and females according to their sex. Not their gender.

Thankfully the Disabled toilets (depicting someone in a wheelchair - needs to be changed I think) were changed to Accessible toilets so that anyone could use them.

Disabled people fought for those spaces in order to be able to access the community. They should not be given up to people who don't have a disability.

The new lady IS a lady - NOT a man.

Bring female isn't a feeling. It is a biological reality. The new person has a biological reality. That biological reality is not female.

The real support is acceptance of peoples choices and differences without the need to wear a badge

Yet when it comes to acceptance that women need sex segregated space you're not interested. As it doesn't suit the narrative.

NiceGerbil · 12/05/2021 16:55

Is this the women are amorphous blobs thing again?

NiceGerbil · 12/05/2021 16:55

Sorry misquoted UN women there.

'Trans women are women at the end of the day. Every woman is a woman. Women are multifaceted, intergenerational, international. They are limitless, formless ... women are the world'

NiceGerbil · 12/05/2021 16:55

If we're formless why do we need bogs at all?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/05/2021 16:59

Or slimming clubs?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 12/05/2021 17:01

@IND1A

I wonder why the OPs management are not supporting all the lesbian gay and bi staff who do not want to share communal toilets with the opposite sex?

What about those who object for religious or cultural reasons ?

The management and the OP don’t sound very kind or inclusive to me.

There is always a clear hierarchy of who gets included, isn't there.

You even see that with the OP's acronym, "LGBTQ", which is most likely the one she's heard at her workplace, where Q probably stands for queer.

It's a fashionable term. For people under 25 who identify that way, and for straight allies old enough to know better, who don't know because they didn't give a fig for LGB back then. It's revealing. I would never be presumptuous enough to term a gay man my own age or older as part of the "queer community".

But this puts it better.

extract

A few years ago I was at a party with some acquaintances when the lively discussion turned political. I have always enjoyed a good natured debate, and many topics were covered with enthusiasm, the drinks flowing. As the evening got later an LGBT issue was brought up. I can’t remember exactly what it was about, but one of the men I was with, a young bisexual who was a student, gestured at me, “We have two queer people here!”

[...]

I very much dislike the word. Firstly due to its historic connotations as a slur, and secondly, the word’s meaning. For a group where a large part of the activism has centred on normalisation, the idea of labelling ourselves as odd, weird and unusual didn’t seem a great strategy.

I was curious to see how others felt, and posted the question on my local LGBT forum, which at the time had an active membership. I had at least forty responses and there was an interesting split between ages, generally late 20s and above hating the word, and believing it to a be a slur. This was especially prevalent among older gay men. But what was especially notable was the group that liked and ‘identified’ with the label queer had a particular political learning. They were the people that embraced the extra letters being added to LGBTQIA+. To them, queer represented inclusivity, in a way the terms gay, lesbian, and bisexual did not.

Taking it offline I later discussed it with a gay Conservative in his late 40s from the pub. His response was unequivocal. Not only was it a slur, but the most offensive insult from when he was younger. Nothing was worse than being called queer and he utterly detests it.

Now, on an individual level, people can call themselves what they like, such are the benefits of living in a free society. But there has been a shift over the last few years. Queer was becoming mainstream. The acronym LGBTQ is now seen more often than not. Queer is being used on large radio stations, in the media, and on television. It seems to be completely taken for granted that not only has the term been completely reclaimed, but it’s a free for all. Anyone can now use it to describe the collective. The queer community.

And lesbians and gay men were not asked. A slur can only be reclaimed at the consent of the target, and large numbers do not consent.

Continues: lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/02/cj-liberte-its-time-to-get-the-queer-out/

SorryAuntLydia · 12/05/2021 17:01

And that' s how I see it. The colleague in question is very shy and just a normal person. It actually upsets me to think that they are by default are presumed a predator. For what it's worth, I don't fear for my life when I share the space with her, and the same goes for everyone I work with. Regardless of their gender.

@thecatmother
My DH is shy, normal and definitely not a predator. I promise you have nothing to fear from him using your workplace loos.
So I’m guessing it’s ok by you if he shares your facilities?
And if not, why not?
And if yes, why have single sex facilities?

RedDogsBeg · 12/05/2021 17:07

What kind of person changes the disabled toilets in a work place to accommodate someone who is perfectly able and at no risk using the toilets designated for their sex?

What kind of person changes the female single sex toilets to gender neutral in a work place to accommodate someone who is at no risk using the toilets designated for their sex?

What kind of person dismisses a sexual abuse survivor who wants the safety and comfort provided by single sex toilets being single sex?

What kind of person dismisses the needs of strict religious women for single sex toilets remaining single sex?

What kind of person rides roughshod over the other protected characteristics in the Equality Act?

and does all of that to assuage the feelings of and to pander to someone on the basis of some indescribable, unquantifiable feeling that bears no relation to reality?

I know what I would call that kind of person.

There is nothing inclusive, progressive, liberal or indeed kind in doing any of the above.

MasterStef · 12/05/2021 17:13

[quote ChiefBabySniffer]@Waitwhat23

I totally agree but if gender dysphoria is so intense that a man that feels like a woman is triggered so violently by the idea of using the men's toilets, one could argue that it is indeed disability. Trans people do not take hormones and occasionally have genital surgery for fun, it's because of a psychiatric illness. [/quote]
I'm saying this kindly before you get called out for transphobia.
Please do not assume that trans people have gender dysphoria. They have campaigned against this being any requirement for being trans - it's a medical condition and medicalises their innate sense of gender by classing it as a disorder.

It's also offensive to suggest that trans people have hormones, surgery or should need to change their bodies or appearance to be trans. Most don't.

TuvoknotSpock · 12/05/2021 17:13

I am pro LGBT etc having equal rights (right to not be fired for being trans etc). I am not pro sexism/women having their rights take away

My work has Males, females and unisex toilets, works well and gives a choice of loos to use

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 12/05/2021 17:16

@PurgatoryOfPotholes that was an interesting read. Thank you.

DS2 (14) is bisexual. We were discussing LGBTQ+ recently and he asked if I knew what 'queer' meant in that context as he only knows it as a word meaning "odd, or weird." I said that as far as I knew it was a term for gay that had been used historically as an insult.
He came to the same conclusion as the 'older' people in that article. "But I'm not weird or odd because I fancy boys and girls. I'm just me. Why does being gay or bi make someone weird/queer." So I think the tide is turning. Or at least my DS and his friends haven't been captured.

He then followed it up by saying he is weird. But not because of his sexuality, he's weird because he's him Grin

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